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California gay marriage ban overturned: report

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Uh oh. You done it now kid. Not a good idea to try to argue the science of homosexuality with Captain.

lol so you agree with CC that you can judge whether or not a group of people or lifestyle can marry based on positive and negative contributions to a society? yes or no?
 
Except, Walker didn't base his ruling on sexual orientation. He based his ruling on the fact that the state had no interest in denying men the right to marry men and women the right to marry women. In other words, he based his ruling on that Prop 8 discrimianted against sex, not sexual orientation. He argued that the state had no interest in mandating gender roles.

Then you cannot stop Polygamists. They have every right to the 14th amendment. No where does it say the 14th ammendment doesn't apply to groups of more than 2 people or stops at a certain age. No could you stop children and adults from marrying. Again, the 14th ammendment applies. That is the gaping hole in the ruling.
 
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You keep trying to make this about morality. It has nothing to do with morality. We live in a Consitutional Republic. That means the law of the land and the ulimate will of the people is the Federal Constitution. A state is perfectly entitled to legistlate morality. However, a state cannot legistlate morality in a way that violates the Federal Consitution. The judge found that Proposition 8 violated the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th amendment of the Federal Consitution. Therefore he overturned Prop 8.
And it has been Constitutionally upheld that states have the right to define marriage. That the Constitution protects that right. The judge who ruled on Prop 8 gave an incorrect and inconsistent interpretation of the Constitution. The Constitution doesn't touch on marriage and sexuality, there is no explicit wording that would protect homosexuality or even heterosexuality. Within our Constitutional Republic there is a process to amend the Constitution. If the states amended the Constitution to specifically say that homosexuality is protected and must be defined within marriage, than there would be a specific argument. A federal judge in MA just ruled that DOMA is unconstitutional in MA because the federal government has no right to dictate to the states how to run marriage (and rightly so). The ruling was passed because the state has the Constitutional right to define marriage.
 
Then you cannot stop Pologmaists. They have every right to teh 14th ammendment. No could you stop children and adults from marrying. Again, the 14th ammendment applies. That is the gaping hole in the ruling.

What do polygamists have to do with the state mandating gender roles?

Walker said it was discriminatory to men to deny them the right to marry other men and discriminatory to women to deny them the right to marry other women. He based his ruling on sex discriminatiion not sexual orientation discrimination. He didn't say that gays and lesbians deserved the right marry because they are homosexual.
 
What do polygamists have to do with the state mandating gender roles?

This is about marriage.

Walker said it was discriminatory to men to deny them the right to marry other men and discriminatory to women to deny them the right to marry other women. He based his ruling on sex discriminatiion not sexual orientation discrimination. He didn't say that gays and lesbians deserved the right marry because they are homosexual.

Then its descrimatory to limit it to 2 people or by how old they are. See? Once you throw out disciminatory and equal protection under the law, anyone can use it.
 
And it has been Constitutionally upheld that states have the right to define marriage. That the Constitution protects that right. The judge who ruled on Prop 8 gave an incorrect and inconsistent interpretation of the Constitution. The Constitution doesn't touch on marriage and sexuality, there is no explicit wording that would protect homosexuality or even heterosexuality. Within our Constitutional Republic there is a process to amend the Constitution. If the states amended the Constitution to specifically say that homosexuality is protected and must be defined within marriage, than there would be a specific argument. A federal judge in MA just ruled that DOMA is unconstitutional in MA because the federal government has no right to dictate to the states how to run marriage (and rightly so). The ruling was passed because the state has the Constitutional right to define marriage.

The DOMA decision only ruled that a state has the right to regulate marriage. It does not give a state the right to regulate marriage in a way that violates the Constitutional rights of American citizens or violates the Federal Constitution.

Once again, you are missing vital facts in this case...

The judge determined that the will of the voters in California violated the rights of a minority, same sex couples, guaranteed by the federal Constitution. Those rights were equal protection under the law as guaranteed by the Equal Protection Clause and the right to Due Process. The law is written, "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Supreme Court precedent holds that marriage is a fundamental Constitutional right...

Taylor versus Safely (1987): "the decision to marry is a fundamental right" and "marriage is an expression of emotional support and public commitment."

Zablocki versus Redhail (1978): "The right to marry is of fundamental importance for all individuals."

Cleveland Board of Education versus LaFleur (1974): "This court has long recognized that freedom of personal choice in matters of marriage and family life is one of the liberties protected buy the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment."

Loving versus Virginia (1967): The "freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men."

The judge defended the will of the people, the federal Constitution; by overturning Proposition 8, which sought to mandate gender roles and restrict same sex couples to a culturally inferior institution by excluding them from marriage and the cultural dignity, respect, and stature inherent in marriage. The state has no interest in excluding one group from a fundamental right without rational basis and so the judge was obligated to overturn it.
 
Tell that to PETA and many atheists who believe all life is equal with human life. Again, that is a moral stance. Many believe that animals can consent. And many believe there is no difference or worth between human and animal life.
Then there should be no issue with them proving that in a court of law. You're saying they BELIEVE. I'm saying, they need to PROVE. Currently, only adult humans can enter into legal contracts. If we want to change that, then we'd need to show how other creatures can also consent to and understand the legal implications of said contracts.

It has to do with the fact that zoophilia is considered immoral by most.
No, it doesn't. It has to do with horses not being consider persons

So, should the mentally ill be banned from marriage?
Some of them, absolutely. If they are found to be unable to understand and consent, then of course they should not be allowed to enter into a contract. That is the way it is currently.

Should everyone be forced to read the marriage contract and take a comprehension test on it?
We cover that with the officiate and two witnesses.

My point is that if sexuality is protected by the equal protection clause, than why not other sexualities? I think your argument is logically consistent though, and I agree about consent. My point is why can't animals even enter into a civil union with someone? Why can't a man legally leave his belongings to his pet dog under some form of contract? Why is it ok to discriminate on other sexualities but homosexuality gets a pass?
I don't see any discrimination, hon. If and when you can prove in a court of law that dogs can understand and consent to contracts, then this would be resolved. No one has been able to do so yet, though.

I stated before, if it's about consent I agree with you.
It IS about consent.

However, is it wrong to discriminate against other sexualities and not give them some form of union that is on par with that sexualities union?
There is no discrimination since dogs and blow up dolls cannot consent to contracts.

I concede that you are right in the consent issue. And it's foolish of me to argue otherwise
Good, then stop trying to! LOL

The roles of marriage is husband and wife. Those are gender specific roles. It's not wrong to say a woman can't be a husband, because she cannot be. It's not wrong to say a man can be a wife, because he cannot be. On a straight marriage license, a man cannot register for the position of wife, nor can a woman register for the position of husband. The terms husband and wife are gender specific, and they have gender specific roles (such as childbirth, impregnation, etc).
Which is exactly why it's gender discrimination.
 
Tell that to PETA and many atheists who believe all life is equal with human life. Again, that is a moral stance. Many believe that animals can consent. And many believe there is no difference or worth between human and animal life. It has to do with the fact that zoophilia is considered immoral by most.

So, should the mentally ill be banned from marriage? Should everyone be forced to read the marriage contract and take a comprehension test on it? My point is that if sexuality is protected by the equal protection clause, than why not other sexualities? I think your argument is logically consistent though, and I agree about consent. My point is why can't animals even enter into a civil union with someone? Why can't a man legally leave his belongings to his pet dog under some form of contract? Why is it ok to discriminate on other sexualities but homosexuality gets a pass?

I stated before, if it's about consent I agree with you. However, is it wrong to discriminate against other sexualities and not give them some form of union that is on par with that sexualities union? I concede that you are right in the consent issue. And it's foolish of me to argue otherwise


The roles of marriage is husband and wife. Those are gender specific roles. It's not wrong to say a woman can't be a husband, because she cannot be. It's not wrong to say a man can be a wife, because he cannot be. On a straight marriage license, a man cannot register for the position of wife, nor can a woman register for the position of husband. The terms husband and wife are gender specific, and they have gender specific roles (such as childbirth, impregnation, etc).

Marriage in legal terms is nothing more than a contract. If you'd like, you can leave your belongings to your dog. It's been done before and can be done. You have to define who cares for the dog who - for some reason - owns your home. But you can't marry your dog or have sex with it. Nor can you claim it as a dependent because you own it.

PETA doesn't argue for animals to enter into contracts. They argue for animal life to be treated with dignity and respect.

The only legal role for a husband and a wife is to care for one another. They don't have to even love one another. They don't have to have sex. They don't have to have children. Thus a husband can stay home, cook dinner, clean. The wife can work and make all the money. If they have children, the father can stay home and care for the child (which is happening a lot more in this recession).

Same-sex couple can and do raise children. As of last census estimate, 22% of male-male households were raising children and 34% of female-female households were raising children. Same-Sex Households with Children in the United States

For God's sake, think of the children! :)

But seriously, your concerns and fears are utterly unwarranted. Please.
 
Which is exactly why it's gender discrimination.
Is it gender discrimination for federal buildings to have male and female restrooms? Is it gender discrimination because men can't get pregnant? Nature is a ***** ain't she?
The roles in marriage have been defined. Female partner=wife, male partner=husband. Marriage is a union between a wife and husband. If people don't like it, they can define a new union and have the state recognize that.
 
Then its descrimatory to limit it to 2 people or by how old they are. See? Once you throw out disciminatory and equal protection under the law, anyone can use it.

Of COURSE it's discrimination! It's discrimination that we don't allow toddlers to drive tractor trailers too. But some discrimination is necessary, other discrimination is forbidden by our constitution. A man being able to enter into a contract with a woman that I, a woman, cannot enter into with a woman is gender discrimination that is unconstitutional.
 
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I've been waiting, and again, no one has addressed my question. If gay marriage is illegal to oppose. And if it's wrong to uphold a marital definition that excludes homosexual unions because that is unconstitutional under the equal protection clause. Then why can't other sexualities and their unions also be recognized? Why does homosexuality deserve special treatment? Wouldn't it also be wrong to exclude other sexualities and their unions from marriage? Are not other sexualities protected by the equal protection clause in this instance?

What other sexualities are you talking about.
 
Is it gender discrimination for federal buildings to have male and female restrooms?
That falls under the whole "separate but equal" bulslhit that I also disagree with , but that's beside the point.

Is it gender discrimination because men can't get pregnant? Nature is a ***** ain't she?
Considering "mother nature" isn't a legal govt entity, no, it's not discrimination.

The roles in marriage have been defined. Female partner=wife, male partner=husband. Marriage is a union between a wife and husband. If people don't like it, they can define a new union and have the state recognize that.
Nah, we'll just redefine the original one. Again.
 
I have absolutely no problem with polygamy as long as it follows the same rules as marriage. If its between CONSENTING ADULTS it doesn't bother me one bit.
 
This is about marriage.

So what about marriage? If the state stops mandating the gender roles of marriage does that somehow affect the argument that marriage should be restricted to two people?

Then its descrimatory to limit it to 2 people or by how old they are.

Why is it discrimnatory? What class of people does it discriminate against? Sex, men and women, are a protected class, just like race is a protected class. Whereas sexual orientation is not a protected class, nor are polygamists or pedophiles. The judge found a wealth of evidence to support that the state had no rational grounds by which to prohibit two people of the same sex from marrying. Whereas polygamists and pedophiles are not only not a protected class, but they are not supported by any credible evidence.

See? Once you throw out disciminatory and equal protection under the law, anyone can use it.

Nope, only protected classes.
 
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Then you have to let everyone in under that general finding. Every alternative lifestyle dealing with people. Nothing could be exempt.

No you don't. The discrimination is based on gender - pure and simple. That's it.

It doesn't mean you have to let polygamists in. You don't have to let pedophiles in. Nor people who have sex with animals.

Your argument holds absolutely no water. So stop using it. The decision only lifts gender discrimination from marriage. It doesn't let men marry eight men; nor does it let women marry cockroaches.

You keep trying to make the slope slippery, but there is no slope there. It's only in your imagination and the imagination of James Dobson and Maggie Gallagher. No church is going to be required to marry gay people (just as a Christian church isn't required to do a Hindu wedding ceremony). Schools aren't going to be required to teach about it (a lie from the Mormon Church).

All of this is in your imagination. Your opinion doesn't have to change. You can still think gays are icky people if you would like to. You don't even have to recognize gay marriages if you don't want to. Your government just can't discriminate against those choosing to enter into marriage based on their gender.

That's all.

Once again, there was no harm done in Massachusetts - the state with the lowest divorce rate in the Union back then and still now. It didn't ruin anyone else's marriage. The state didn't fall into the sea because God smote them. Everyone's life just went back to normal. Polygamists didn't flock there to marry. Pedophiles didn't flock there to marry. People didn't start marrying baboons.

There's no there there.

You know what a person who constantly fears the worst, exaggerates a lot, and freaks out over nothing is called? A drama queen.
 
That falls under the whole "separate but equal" bulslhit that I also disagree with , but that's beside the point.
But there are logical reasons to separating male and female restrooms. Separate but equal is sometimes necessary and not inherently bad. An apple and an orange are separate but equal as fruits.
Considering "mother nature" isn't a legal govt entity, no, it's not discrimination.
But the definition of marriage comes from mother nature's principals. The wife is the female who has the children, the male is the husband who provides the seed. That is one of the natural things within marriage and assigning the gender roles of the wife and husband. By definition, a woman cannot be a husband because she is not male. This isn't wrong, it's just logical and natural.
Nah, we'll just redefine the original one. Again.
Which is a moral stance. And until (or if) those definitions are changed, they shall be kept as wife=woman, husband=man.
 
Is it gender discrimination for federal buildings to have male and female restrooms? Is it gender discrimination because men can't get pregnant? Nature is a ***** ain't she?
The roles in marriage have been defined. Female partner=wife, male partner=husband. Marriage is a union between a wife and husband. If people don't like it, they can define a new union and have the state recognize that.

And the state can call it marriage.

Done.
 
But there are logical reasons to separating male and female restrooms. Separate but equal is sometimes necessary and not inherently bad. An apple and an orange are separate but equal as fruits.

Apparantly you have never heard of unisex bathrooms.
 
And the state can call it marriage.

Done.

That's my point. The state can call it marriage.

Apparantly you have never heard of unisex bathrooms.

I have, but that is irrelevant. The fact is that sexes are banned from certain areas based on gender is considered fine and moral given the uses for bathrooms. Having a unisex bathroom does not negate the fact that male and female restricted bathrooms exist and are not challenged.
 
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And why are you going to latch onto my post and try to misrepresent it? If the partner had not cheated he would not have the virus..
LOL - I didn't "represent it" much less "misrepresent it" - it was merely a reference to an earlier discussion on cause.

(and no he did not cheat because he was gay, he cheated because he was unfaithful) therefore it was the partner cheating that caused the disease to spread, IE that is the cause (to be redundantly redundant).
None of this discussion on cause is relevant to my discussion on risk factors.
 
I have, but that is irrelevant. The fact is that sexes are banned from certain areas based on gender is considered fine and moral given the uses for bathrooms. Having a unisex bathroom does not negate the fact that male and female restricted bathrooms exist and are not challenged.

Actually they are. Transexuals are often challenging the fact that they are restricted from using the bathroom of their perceived gender. Although I don't think any such case has made its way into court yet. It'll be interesting when one does to see if they can make a Constitutional argument of sex discrimination out of it.

However, there are other factors to contend with, such as regulation of private property, which play into it and make the bathroom/locker arguments rather irrelevant to the marriage discussion.
 
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That's my point. The state can call it marriage.



I have, but that is irrelevant. The fact is that sexes are banned from certain areas based on gender is considered fine and moral given the uses for bathrooms. Having a unisex bathroom does not negate the fact that male and female restricted bathrooms exist and are not challenged.


Because there's no legal benefits attached to taking a pee.
 
However, there is that wonderful shivery feeling that happens if you had to hold it for awhile.

........ tmi?

Because there's no legal benefits attached to taking a pee.
 
But there are logical reasons to separating male and female restrooms. Separate but equal is sometimes necessary and not inherently bad. An apple and an orange are separate but equal as fruits.
I disagree, but that's another issue altogether.

But the definition of marriage comes from mother nature's principals.
"mother nature" doesn't have any principals.

The wife is the female who has the children,
The woman does, she doesn't need to be a wife. And she only does so if she chooses to.

the male is the husband who provides the seed.
A man does, doesn't have to be a husband or even the woman's husband or partner. And that's only if HE chooses to.

That is one of the natural things within marriage and assigning the gender roles of the wife and husband.
Only if you consider marriage to be a requirement to having children and/or having children a requirement of marriage. But marriage is not "natural" in the general sense of the word. It's a man made, man defined institution.

By definition, a woman cannot be a husband because she is not male. This isn't wrong, it's just logical and natural.
There's nothing "natural" about marriage anyway. It's a man made thing. (using the generally accepted defintion of the word 'natural') Regardless, she doesn't have to be a husband (a word that WE define and can redefine, btw). She can be a wife, as can her wife.

Which is a moral stance. And until (or if) those definitions are changed, they shall be kept as wife=woman, husband=man.
husband and husband, and wife and wife. :) But no, it's not a moral stance, it's a legal one based on gender equality in our govt.
 
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