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Thread: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

  1. #341
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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    If the government shouldn't legislate morals, then why should they have any right to pass a position on marriage at all (as marriage is a moral and societal issue and construct).
    I'm going to ignore the rest of your post because I am sure others here will tear it apart. In terms of your question above.."Marriage" is a binding legal contract. In terms of this contract the State has a specific legal description of "Marriage". Your specific moral or societal descipriton can and most likely will be different. For example, my cousin is not recognized as married by his previous church because he was not married by the church, he was married by a judge at the court house. The State recognizes his marriage but the Church does not.

    You have every right to not morally accept someones homosexual marriage. The state however will recognize it and thus in terms of legal proceedings we all must.
    "Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head."
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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    No, my views and beliefs were prevented from being represented.
    That's because your views and beliefs violate the rights of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    My right to my sovereign vote was infringed upon.
    No it wasn't, you got to vote. You just can't make law that which infringes upon the rights of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    My beliefs were ruled to be illegal,
    That's because your beliefs were illegal. You cannot infringe upon the rights of others. You were free to vote for it, and you did. But since we are not a direct democracy (for the love of all that is holy, how is this a hard concept to understand?), we have system of checks and balances to ensure the rights of the minority are upheld.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    and it was also ruled illegal for me to legally voice my beliefs.
    For the love of ****, no it was not. Go out onto the street corner and start preaching against same sex marriage. Dollars to donuts says you don't get arrested.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    If the majority of people voted to legalize contractual slavery (where someone sells themselves as a slave in a contract) then why not?
    Because WE ARE NOT A DIRECT DEMOCRACY. Jesus tap dancing Christ on a pogo stick. We are a Constitutional Republic built upon the rights and liberties of the individual. We protect those rights, we ensure those rights. Majority rules within minority rights. That's how it is. And not contractual slavery, nice attempt to try to deflect there. Forced slavery is also not outside your "logic" here. If the majority of the people in a State said "Black people suck and we should make them slaves again!" Do you really think they should be allowed to? Well according to EVERYTHING you've said in this thread, yes. But it's an insane position to take.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Personally I don't agree with it. By the way, the civil rights movement and the 14th amendment is a stawman in regards to homosexual unions.
    But the 9th amendment isn't. And by your actions you're trying to infringe upon an individual's right to contract since marriage is a State issued and recognized contract.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Isn't the Libertarian position that the government has no right to enforce morality?
    Government is inherently amoral. And nothing that the court did here "enforces morality". The enforcement of morality comes from the other side. The side trying to infringe upon the rights of others to enter into contract. That's where morality is being enforced. Now, if the law said you can only get gay married, then you'd have a point. But since it didn't, you don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Would you have a problem with the state enforcing the moral opinion that homosexuality is equal with heterosexual unions?
    WTF are you even talking about now? All people have right to contract, that's that. Marriage is a contract. That's the end all be all of this argument. One side (yours) wishes to infringe upon that right. The other side wishes to acknowledge that right.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    If the government shouldn't legislate morals, then why should they have any right to pass a position on marriage at all (as marriage is a moral and societal issue and construct).
    Because marriage is a contract. The Marriage License is a State issued and recognized contract. The government isn't legislating morals. That's is a dumb, retarded, and tired argument. The courts here are merely looking to acknowledge the EQUAL right. No where are your rights infringed upon. No where does it say you have to like it. No where does it say you can't condemn it. But so long as the marriage license exists as a contract, you cannot infringe upon other's right to contract.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  3. #343
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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's reserved by the People as per the 9th amendment.
    Marriage is a matter of law, not individual rights. It cannot be reserved to the people. All that this concerns is legal recognition of a relationship as a marriage for purposes of the government. I think gay marriage should be recognized by state laws and federal laws under certain circumstances, but this to me is not a matter of the U.S. Constitution.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    I already did in Tennessee. People don't have an inerrant rite to have their choices and lifestyles accepted as legal and moral at the state level. My right to vote was infringed when what I support and what passed as law was ruled to be illegal. As I said before, I would have no objection or problem if Prop 8 was voted against and homosexual marriage was defined as law.

    No, my views and beliefs were prevented from being represented. My right to my sovereign vote was infringed upon.
    Lol your views and beliefs were NOT prevented from being represented. You were prevented from forcing your beliefs on other people. If you value being allowed to have your own beliefs, you should be happy about this decision.
    My beliefs were ruled to be illegal, and it was also ruled illegal for me to legally voice my beliefs. If the majority of people voted to legalize contractual slavery (where someone sells themselves as a slave in a contract) then why not? Personally I don't agree with it. By the way, the civil rights movement and the 14th amendment is a stawman in regards to homosexual unions. Isn't the Libertarian position that the government has no right to enforce morality? Would you have a problem with the state enforcing the moral opinion that homosexuality is equal with heterosexual unions? If the government shouldn't legislate morals, then why should they have any right to pass a position on marriage at all (as marriage is a moral and societal issue and construct).
    You hit the nail dead on the head in the 2nd paragraph. You are exactly correct, the government should NOT legislate morals, which is exactly what Prop 8 does, it legislates morality - it forces an individual to live by another individual's belief system. Passing a law which defines the morals others must live by is illegal, which is why this judge correctly struck it down. Incidentally, the slavery example is another wonderful argument against your position. if the populous votes to pass a law which specifically violates a person's civil rights, the law they voted for is illegal, period, just like Prop 8.
    Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual. -Thomas Jefferson

  5. #345
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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Marriage is a matter of law, not individual rights. It cannot be reserved to the people. All that this concerns is legal recognition of a relationship as a marriage for purposes of the government. I think gay marriage should be recognized by state laws and federal laws under certain circumstances, but this to me is not a matter of the U.S. Constitution.
    Since marriage is a contract, and the individual has the right to contract, it is most certainly reserved to the people through the 9th and is alos an issue of individual rights.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  6. #346
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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Jesus tap dancing Christ on a pogo stick.
    Though everything you said was right on 99% of my "Thanks" to your post is because of this one line.
    "Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head."
    - Warren Buffett

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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    That's because your views and beliefs violate the rights of others
    views and beliefs are capable of violating another sovereign person's rights?

    i wonder what that civics-for-kids teacher would say about that

  8. #348
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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    And that vote does not negate Constitutionally appointed liberties like the equal protection clause. And regardless of whether you maintain this cowardly, half assed defense that this is about persecuting poor wittle Chwistians or not, you haven't had your rights stripped and been demoted to a second class citizen. You are not being told you have to or cannot do something. I am being told I cannot do what you can do. That's where the attack comes from.
    Does the equal protection clause extend to sexual orientation and to force everyone to accept any orientation as legal? What about the rights of pansexuals? Why can't someone marry their kitchen stove? Among all the traditionally immoral sexualities, why does homosexuality have a special privilege? And yes, deny it all you want, but my right to vote and have my beliefs as law have been stripped from me in California when it comes to defining marriage. Don't be blind to it.
    Can you show me where homosexuals are trying to make churches gay marry them?
    Strawman duly noted. Ignoring now. There are people who want to regulate speech in churches where they can't call homosexuality a sin.
    Why do heterosexuals have to have Mardi Gras where they walk around in drunken stupors ****ing in the streets and flashing their tits, hanging beads off their cocks?
    I see that you find these displays to be disgusting too. My point is that homosexuals do flaunt their "pride" and force people to accept them by trouncing around in whatever they wear and calling everyone "haters" who don't support them.

    Why can't you keep your sexuality private instead of using it to sell merchandise to little kids and announcing your unions in the paper, etc? Why can't you just sit at home out of the public eye instead of holding hands and kissing in public?
    I don't care if gays kiss in public or state in the paper that they are "married."
    I know it just burns your ass that we don't act like good little house niggers and stay silent in the kitchen until massa' tells us we can speak. But you're gonna have to get the **** over it, pal. Cuz it ain't never gonna happen, capiche? I don't care how much communion wine you guzzle and how many times Jeebus tells you, it ain't coming to pass.
    I'm actually fine with homosexuals voicing their beliefs and voting, along with those who support the homosexual union. I think it's great that they can voice their opinions and make them law. Just like it's great to have people of the opposing view standing up for what they believe and voting... oh wait, in California only pro-gay people have a right to any say on the issue. To be honest, my ass is quite happy that people can democratically vote. You can stop making fun of my religion if you want to. It's irrelevant to the debate to make fun of Christians.
    No one is telling you your beliefs are illegal. You can have whatever sorry medieval beliefs you want to have, pal. I don't give a **** and neither does the law. What you cannot do is leverage those dark age beliefs through your vote to impose your beliefs on others, denying them rights that you enjoy (which you incidentally thnk you enjoy because of your beliefs to start with).
    Um, yes they are. The judge just ruled that it's illegal for people to vote against gay marriage, and that it's illegal to have that view represented in the state. You're to smart and logical to be blind to this fact. Why can social liberals impose their beliefs upon others? Why is that ok? Why can they force their definition of marriage upon the majority who legally and democratically voted against it?
    Except when your definition also include a severe limitation of rights.
    Homosexual unions aren't a right though. What right is being limited? The only right limited is people's right to vote and have their opinions put into law.
    OK, so you can vote on it. And then I can take it straight to the court and point out where your mob tried to curb my individuality. And guess what...today the court sided against your vote. Learn to love it because its gonna happen more and more.
    They did that in TN too, and the judge correctly ruled that my state has the right to define marriage. We voted, and passed Amendment 1 to legally define marriage.
    If your rights were being curbed, I would be fighting right along side you to help you get them back or keep them. What I said is that I don't care about your pitiful angst that you didn't get to strip me of mine.
    My rights are being curbed, in that my right to vote has been infringed upon by the judge who ruled the very voicing of my opinion on a ballot to be illegal. California stripped me of my rights and the right to vote on an issue that was presented before Californians. What is the logic behind the judge making prop 8 illegal?
    Cut the persecution crap. Just come on down off that cross and hand over your little crown of plastic thorns. No one is buying that you are the victim here.
    [/quote]
    I was merely exposing you to the truth that yes, Christians are persecuted and those of us who believe homosexuality is wrong get a damn beating for it. Again, attack my religion all you want.
    When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. -Socrates
    Tired of elections being between the lesser of two evils.

  9. #349
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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Since marriage is a contract, and the individual has the right to contract, it is most certainly reserved to the people through the 9th and is alos an issue of individual rights.
    It is a contract with the force of law. An individual cannot decide what has the force of law over another person. Whether a contract has the force of law is up to the government. Your legal argument would allow polygamy and the chaos that would result.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
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  10. #350
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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    views and beliefs are capable of violating another sovereign person's rights?

    i wonder what that civics-for-kids teacher would say about that
    They are once one tries to use government force to enforce them. Such as creation of laws, which is what this thread is about. So please, stay on target.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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