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Thread: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    It's there as a red herring. It has little to do with it, but is presented as a slippery slope... one that does not apply.
    You had a much stronger argument for that before this decision.
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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    You had a much stronger argument for that before this decision.
    No, the strength of that argument remains. Ultimately, all decisions such as this, are based on what benefits society and whether those benefits outweigh the negatives.
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    ====||:-D

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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No, the strength of that argument remains. Ultimately, all decisions such as this, are based on what benefits society and whether those benefits outweigh the negatives.
    Not anymore. Not after where this judge went with it.

    In a vacuum, I'd agree with you. But that's not where the debate is anymore.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    You had a much stronger argument for that before this decision.
    And what in the decision renders you to believe that polygamy is actually a relevant argument? You are doing the same thing the rest have, which is saying it matters, because you say it matters, with no reference to the actual decision.
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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    And what in the decision renders you to believe that polygamy is actually a relevant argument? You are doing the same thing the rest have, which is saying it matters, because you say it matters, with no reference to the actual decision.
    I already explained it. The grounds upon which the judge decided the case (that it's unconstitutional to define marriage on moral grounds, and that any "traditional" definition of marriage is moral grounds) make it impossible for polygamy not be taken up. This case is at the forefront of the debate, thus, polygamy is in the mix.
    Last edited by Harshaw; 08-07-10 at 04:10 PM.
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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    I already explained it. The grounds upon which the judge decided the case (that it's unconstitutional to define marriage on moral grounds, and that any "traditional" definition of marriage is moral grounds) make it impossible for polygamy not be taken up. This case is at the forefront of the debate, thus, polygamy is in the mix.
    Again, the moral issue is easily overridden by the benefit to society issue.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    141 pages impressive.

    Man some arguments really get to me.

    "if we let the gays get married we'll lose our soul and national identity... Etc"

    Yeah because continuing to discriminate against something you don't like definitely saves your soul.

    "less government, less government, unless its something i don't like in which case the government should step in and discriminate on my behalf"

    Seriously? Sometimes I worry.

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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    I already explained it. The grounds upon which the judge decided the case (that it's unconstitutional to define marriage on moral grounds, and that any "traditional" definition of marriage is moral grounds) make it impossible for polygamy not be taken up. This case is at the forefront of the debate, thus, polygamy is in the mix.
    I am not seeing where that was the basis for his ruling. Maybe you can actually quote where he said it so I can find it. I do see things like this though:

    Today, gender is not
    relevant to the state in determining spouses’ obligations to each
    other and to their dependents. Relative gender composition aside,
    same-sex couples are situated identically to opposite-sex couples
    in terms of their ability to perform the rights and obligations of
    marriage under California law. FF 48. Gender no longer forms an
    essential part of marriage; marriage under law is a union of
    equals.
    Plaintiffs seek to have the state recognize their
    committed relationships, and plaintiffs’ relationships are
    consistent with the core of the history, tradition and practice of
    marriage in the United States
    Plaintiffs’ unions encompass the historical purpose
    and form of marriage. Only the plaintiffs’ genders relative to one
    another prevent California from giving their relationships due
    recognition.
    This is not sounding like polygamy can easily shoehorn it's way into this ruling.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    I think maybe I found it. I hope this is what Harshaw is referring to, since searching the document on the terms he provided has brought me to almost the end of the document(page 134 of 138). So here it is:

    A PRIVATE MORAL VIEW THAT SAME-SEX COUPLES ARE INFERIOR TO
    OPPOSITE-SEX COUPLES IS NOT A PROPER BASIS FOR LEGISLATION
    Now, if this is what Harshaw is basing his comments on, we can already see the fracturing of his argument, but let's read on a bit more.

    In the absence of a rational basis, what remains of
    proponents’ case is an inference, amply supported by evidence in
    the record, that Proposition 8 was premised on the belief that
    same-sex couples simply are not as good as opposite-sex couples.
    FF 78-80. Whether that belief is based on moral disapproval of
    homosexuality, animus towards gays and lesbians or simply a belief
    that a relationship between a man and a woman is inherently better
    than a relationship between two men or two women, this belief is
    not a proper basis on which to legislate.
    The very start of this quote is why Harshaw's argument fails. "In the absence of rational basis". Gays where able to show that their being married is every bit as good as straits. For polygamy to be allowed, under this, and just this aspect of the ruling(and this is far from the only aspect relevant), they would have to show that the only reason to object is based on "moral disapproval", "animus" or unreasoned belief.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I think maybe I found it. I hope this is what Harshaw is referring to, since searching the document on the terms he provided has brought me to almost the end of the document(page 134 of 138). So here it is:



    Now, if this is what Harshaw is basing his comments on, we can already see the fracturing of his argument, but let's read on a bit more.



    The very start of this quote is why Harshaw's argument fails. "In the absence of rational basis". Gays where able to show that their being married is every bit as good as straits. For polygamy to be allowed, under this, and just this aspect of the ruling(and this is far from the only aspect relevant), they would have to show that the only reason to object is based on "moral disapproval", "animus" or unreasoned belief.
    It could have been this word that threw them off. "animus "
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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