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Thread: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

  1. #1151
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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Weak pal, very weak. When you say "scoff", what you really mean is that you have no logical reason to deny any marriage between 100 people if they so choose. To do so exposes the weakness of the "gay marriage as a fundamanetal right's", issue.

    You're not fooling anyone..



    Tim-
    Actually, pal, the argument is clear if you know anything about the case law surrounding marriage. First and foremost, all legal assertions point to the marriage contract being one in which you name "one person irreplaceable" (Perez v Sharp) and to hold a "place of unique and singular value" (Perez v Sharp) to you. A polygamous relationship, by its very definition, precludes this arrangement from ever taking place and, thus, has no relevance to the gay marriage debate.

    Now that's all I am going to say about your red herring and I am going to let the rest of your snarky post slide for now because I can see that you are getting your ass handed to you on all fronts and, being the civilized chap that I am, see no reason to further add insult to your injury.

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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I respectfully disagree. If the government can pick and choose which marriages to give benefits to, then it has violated the 14th Amendment, and therefore it's business is not being conducted in a constitutional way.
    which means that the government can not issue marriage lisences.

    which is sacrificing functionality for form.

  3. #1153
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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    And thus it is discriminatory based on gender by my argument, as a man can marry a woman, and a woman can marry a man, but a man can't marry a man and ditto for woman and woman. Gender discrimination is unconstitutional if it doesn't meet a rather high standard of necessity and proof, which it doesn't.
    It is discriminatory based on gender, because the definition of marriage is a union between only a man and woman. The definition discriminates against allowing homosexual unions to be put under the same definition. However, this is not wrong. One could also argue that it's discrimination to not include animals into the definition of marriage and say its a union between a human and any consenting organism. Not all discrimination is unjust, we discriminate against the action of murder by making it illegal. I am not morally equating homosexuality, murder, and bestiality. What I am doing is showing how discrimination isn't always a wrong thing and that we discriminate against things all the time. Would it be discrimination to define marriage as a union between a man and woman but then also allow civil unions with equal benefits to be in place for other sexualities?
    I understand all this. However, I am speaking specifically of many of the conservatives on this thread who are simultaneoulsly calling this judge an "activist" while advocating for activist judging by ignoring that constitutionally as of now marriage is a constitutional right.
    I support being Constitutionally consistent and ruling on the document based on how it is written and original intent. In all honesty, pretty much every judge is an activist judge because they make rulings based on their interpretation of the Constitution. However, what the case may be is that many interpret the Constitution according to law, others according to political philosophy and wishful thinking.

    Edit: I must be off to work not, if anyone responds to me expect a reply later in the evening. Take care all.
    Last edited by digsbe; 08-05-10 at 06:41 PM.
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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    So Zyphlin, if I am reading you correctly, you don't believe marriage is a fundamental right? Only a constitutional right? Am I missing something?

    Oops, sorry posted at the same time. Ok so I was correct. I need to go smoke a cigarette, I'll be back.

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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    the question remains the same. what gives you the voter the right to impose your morality on marriage?
    Nothing gives me the right to impose my morality on marriage.

    However, the constitution gives the right to impose the constitution on the law, of which marriage is.

    And the constitution says there is equal protection under the law.

    And allowing a man to marry a woman but a woman not to marry a woman, and vise versa, is discrimination under the law based on gender.

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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Tex

    Listen to me as I type very....very...slowly.

    I've not made the argument, once, anywhere in this thread, that any group at all has a FUNDAMENTAL right to marry.

    I am arguing that as it stands today MARRIAGE in general is a CONSTITUTIONAL right.
    And I'll say it again very very slowly. Marriage as a right was NEVER EVER granted based on sexual preference. The ONLY case was based on race.

    I am arguing that the 14th amendment and the equal protection clause protects individual classes of people from discrimination in regards ot the law, including constitutional rights.

    I am arguing specific to my stance, that there is gender discrimination in the current marriage system and since gender is a clearly defined unquestionable subset under the equal protection clause, that it is unconstitutional to deny men from marrying men and women from marrying women when men can marry women and women can marry men.
    Then by your logic you cannot exclude ANYONE no matter what size, age or sexual preference from demanding the same thing. That is the key point you keep missing.

    I am also saying that due to the significant amount of evidence supporting the notion that sexual orientation in the large majority of homosexuals can be attributed as "natural" or "born with" that there is a far greater case to be made for that being worthy of EPC on the same level of gender if not race than polygamy which has no evidence of being an orientation or something people are "born" with.
    That is where we totally disagree. There is no natural finding in even a majority of homosexuals to characterize it in that way.

    Finally I am stating that "number of people", which is where the inequality comes into play with polygamists as they feel that if they can marry 1 person its discrimination to not allow them to marry 2, is not a recognized protected group under EPC like gender NOR has anyone presented any argument let alone a strong argument as to why it should be covered under EPC similar to the arguments made for sexual orientation.
    Nowhere in any part of the Constitution does it specify the number of people than can marry. If you are going to claim it is a right you cannot descriminate against the number of people marrying each other.
    Last edited by texmaster; 08-05-10 at 06:42 PM.
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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Actually, pal, the argument is clear if you know anything about the case law surrounding marriage. First and foremost, all legal assertions point to the marriage contract being one in which you name "one person irreplaceable" (Perez v Sharp) and to hold a "place of unique and singular value" (Perez v Sharp) to you. A polygamous relationship, by its very definition, precludes this arrangement from ever taking place and, thus, has no relevance to the gay marriage debate.

    Now that's all I am going to say about your red herring and I am going to let the rest of your snarky post slide for now because I can see that you are getting your ass handed to you on all fronts and, being the civilized chap that I am, see no reason to further add insult to your injury.
    Ah, I see, so you're with Zyphlin on this. Marriage is not fundamental, but it is constitutional? You realize that rights not enumerated are considered fundamental, right?

    Thanks for handing me me one.. Right back atcha..

    Tim-
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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by ptif219 View Post
    Just another sign that gays want their immoral behavior to be seen as normal
    morality has nothing to do with it since it is subjective. Equality under the law has everything to do with it since that is objective. I don't give a flying **** what people consider normal or abnormal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    Again for the thousand time, Blacks are a race of people....They can't change that.........Gays are a class of people defined by their sexual preference..............They can and have done that..........
    And for the 1000th time, we're talking about gender. Sexuality really has nothing to do with it.

    Same SEX marriage. Sex = Gender. The issue is gender. You can marry a woman and I cannot.

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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    I asked a question on this and the DOMA ruling in this thread, but it is getting buried in all the other issues being discussed, so I started a new thread to discuss the aspect I am most interested in. Can I get people to check out this thread, especially those with a good knowledge of the law? Any input on my question is most welcome.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/genera...post1058900213
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: California gay marriage ban overturned: report

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    And allowing a man to marry a woman but a woman not to marry a woman, and vise versa, is discrimination under the law based on gender.
    44 of our states find differently

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