Page 9 of 11 FirstFirst ... 7891011 LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 102

Thread: Gunman Kills Self and Others at CT Company

  1. #81
    Educator
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Minnesota
    Last Seen
    10-15-10 @ 08:55 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    718

    Re: Gunman Kills Self and Others at CT Company

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    WTF does that even mean?


    My one year old could have come up with a better retort than that.
    Ahh yes, a personal insult. SOP for some I guess. Now I remember why I haven't been reading your posts.

  2. #82
    Klattu Verata Nicto
    LaMidRighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Louisiana
    Last Seen
    07-21-17 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    30,534

    Re: Gunman Kills Self and Others at CT Company

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    It is well known that stress reduces accuracy. This is taken into account in all quality gun training instruction; certainly when I conduct gun training it is.

    The primary means to compensate is to aim center of mass and shoot with deliberate aim. There are also training methods used by me and many other instructors to condition shooters to deal with adrenaline. One method used is to run the student until they are nearly breathless, then require them to stop on the line and shoot the target. This simulates the physiological conditions associated with the adrenaline rush.

    Also it is more than theory. As an ex-cop I've had exposure to actual shooting incidents, and as a trainer I've known citizens who have been in actual shooting incidents. To be honest I don't see private citizens as being less able to cope than most cops in most cases.

    So, you say you are simply stating your unsupported opinion... all right. My opinion, based on decades of experience, is that your assumptions are wrong and your conclusions are based on a badly biased attitude about armed citizens.
    Quote Originally Posted by StaggerLee View Post
    Hey, Great. I'm glad somebody has to be right and somebody has to wrong. How would we ever get along otherwise, right? So running oneself breathless and then having them stand motionless on a line to shoot is representative of a "Life and death" situation? Interesting. I had no idea. I think people tend to waive off the power of Human emotion. Regardless, i'm not here to have a boxing match, i'm just here to express my opinion on matters. I can respect your position as an ex cop who lived and breathed those situations routinely, as i an all other non cops don't. And i'm not going to present the assumption that you're wrong because i believe differently. We obviously have different positions. That's all. But thanks for pointing out how wrong and unsupported my "belief" is ...i'll try and keep that in mind...
    Hey G, isn't it funny how people who admit they have no experience like to tell those with it their opinion is of equal standing?
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  3. #83
    User
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Last Seen
    08-05-10 @ 01:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    22

    Re: Gunman Kills Self and Others at CT Company

    So the problem is that there were'nt a hundred armed citizens standing there at the time of the shooting? Ok, great. But do tell, how is the statement, "As people, we are emotionally driven, sometimes beyond rationale, and i believe (again, its my belief), there would be more victims"...a gross assumption and unprovable? I disagree, it's very provable, it's human nature. But ok, whatever works. Anyway, have a good one.._

  4. #84
    User
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Last Seen
    08-05-10 @ 01:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    22

    Re: Gunman Kills Self and Others at CT Company

    Really? Opinions have ranking value? If that's what makes you all feel important.....i didnt realize we werent entitled to opinions and beliefs if they didnt agree with everybody else...oh darn...

  5. #85
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:29 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    44,156

    Re: Gunman Kills Self and Others at CT Company

    Quote Originally Posted by StaggerLee View Post
    Hey, Great. I'm glad somebody has to be right and somebody has to wrong. How would we ever get along otherwise, right? So running oneself breathless and then having them stand motionless on a line to shoot is representative of a "Life and death" situation? Interesting. I had no idea.
    The physiological (physical} symptoms related to fear and adrenaline are: breathlessness, shaky hands, tunnel vision, and tache-psyche. Most of these can be simulated by various training methods, including running the student until they are badly fatigued, applying psychological stressors to induce a emotional reaction, and so on.

    No, this isn't a perfect simulation equating to combat. The only way to do that would be to have them actually shoot at each other with real bullets.

    The closest we can get to that are simunitions. Simunitions are an ammunition that are shot thru realistic guns; they are not deadly but they do hurt like a sumbitch. Tactical exercises using sims are another common training technique.

    So how do you think cops are trained? The truth is, not very well in many departments.

    The truth is that the average policeman is not much better trained than the average CCW citizen, in my experience. Don't like armed citizens? You'd better be dubious about armed police also, then, to be consistent. Not to mention that armed citizens are only allowed to shoot against a clear and imminent danger to lives, while policemen may shoot under other circumstances in some cases.




    I think people tend to waive off the power of Human emotion.
    Not at all. I don't know any competent gun trainer that doesn't address that aspect.


    I can respect your position as an ex cop who lived and breathed those situations routinely, as i an all other non cops don't.
    No, this is exactly my point. People seem to think cops have some magic ability to deal with things like shoot-outs without letting their emotions become engaged. Not so. A cop I worked with who skillfully handled a VERY hairy situation one night was asked "Were you scared?" His reply: "You couldn't have drove a toothpick up my ass with a sledgehammer I was so scared!"
    I'm here to tell you there is no magic training method that removes that aspect, neither in cops nor in civilians. If you oppose allowing citizens to go armed, you need to oppose letting cops go armed... because cops are just human beings too, and nobody waves a magic wand over them and says "you are now immune to stress and emotion."

    And i'm not going to present the assumption that you're wrong because i believe differently. We obviously have different positions. That's all.
    Positions are based on things. They may be based on data, experience, statistics, logic, emotion, or empty air. What they are based on determines their worth.

    I've explained that my positions are based on many years experience in these matters. On many occasions here at DP, I've posted sources and data to back up my positions on guns and armed citizens.

    Not all opinions are created equal.


    But thanks for pointing out how wrong and unsupported my "belief" is ...i'll try and keep that in mind...

    My pleasure, any time.
    Last edited by Goshin; 08-05-10 at 01:58 PM.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  6. #86
    Klattu Verata Nicto
    LaMidRighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Louisiana
    Last Seen
    07-21-17 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    30,534

    Re: Gunman Kills Self and Others at CT Company

    Quote Originally Posted by StaggerLee View Post
    Really? Opinions have ranking value? If that's what makes you all feel important.....i didnt realize we werent entitled to opinions and beliefs if they didnt agree with everybody else...oh darn...
    Considering that you assert your uninformed and unbacked opinion is of equal standing to a trained former officer who trains civilians to use weapons, and have asserted that a tragic shooting would have been worse with armed civilians because of a hypothetical lacking any backing in reality or empirical evidence then yes. I'd say some opinions are definitely worth more than others.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  7. #87
    Sage


    MaggieD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Chicago Area
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    43,242
    Blog Entries
    43

    Re: Gunman Kills Self and Others at CT Company

    Nice way to welcome a newbie, folks, re posts above. Even among EXPERTS, if we acknowledge that LA & Goshin are experts, there seems to be a difference of opinion. Everyone is entitled to one and doesn't deserve to be berated for it. That's just plain wrong. Sorry, can't help but post this. It's not easy being newbie. ;-)
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  8. #88
    Klattu Verata Nicto
    LaMidRighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Louisiana
    Last Seen
    07-21-17 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    30,534

    Re: Gunman Kills Self and Others at CT Company

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Nice way to welcome a newbie, folks, re posts above. Even among EXPERTS, if we acknowledge that LA & Goshin are experts, there seems to be a difference of opinion.
    I'm not an expert but have been trained in weaponry. I study general arms and their histories, tactics, etc. and it irks me when someone makes uninformed statements about them.
    Everyone is entitled to one and doesn't deserve to be berated for it.
    Actually, when one comes in assuming that armed citizens are irrational I will correct it.
    That's just plain wrong.
    I disagree. We on the pro-second side have encountered these cookie cutter positions and arguments endlessly and the story never changes, we are sick of it.
    Sorry, can't help but post this. It's not easy being newbie. ;-)
    Y'Know Maggie, I like ya as a poster, but newbs gotta pay dues sometimes. S'not a big deal.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  9. #89
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:29 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    44,156

    Re: Gunman Kills Self and Others at CT Company

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Nice way to welcome a newbie, folks, re posts above. Even among EXPERTS, if we acknowledge that LA & Goshin are experts, there seems to be a difference of opinion. Everyone is entitled to one and doesn't deserve to be berated for it. That's just plain wrong. Sorry, can't help but post this. It's not easy being newbie. ;-)

    Hm? I thought I was reasonably polite, given that he didn't have a leg to stand on. I did him the courtesy of addressing his points, even though I've heard that bogus argument so many times it makes my teeth ache.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  10. #90
    ANTI**ANTIFA
    ReverendHellh0und's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Temple of Solomon
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 05:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    75,260

    Re: Gunman Kills Self and Others at CT Company

    Quote Originally Posted by StaggerLee View Post
    Well, for one, it's my "belief", not an argument. And of those who regularly visit and train at the Gun Range on their accuracy, how many have been put in real world situations where now one is biologically gorged with adreline and emotion? Yeah, aiming good, hitting bystanders Bad, all good and well. Hooray for theory. Ive seen Star NBA players who can stand at the freethrow line all day long in practice and never miss. You put them in a playoff situation, and all the sudden they can't find the bottom of the net. Ironic.

    Well, We don't train for "aiming" we train for hits on target center mass under stress down range... We for one don't teach you to shoot with a gun we teach you how to fight with a gun.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

Page 9 of 11 FirstFirst ... 7891011 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •