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Thread: Gunman Kills Self and Others at CT Company

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    Re: Gunman Kills Self and Others at CT Company

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    This video should be a public safety announcement about why Glocks suck....




    More like "How being a Pompous Ass and Strutting Around is likely to come back to bite you."

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    Re: Gunman Kills Self and Others at CT Company

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    More like "How being a Pompous Ass and Strutting Around is likely to come back to bite you."



    I'm down with a multiple message PSA.....
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Gunman Kills Self and Others at CT Company

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Hi strawman, you want to show how "gun freaks" think everyone should be "Strapped"?
    Thanks for making my point. I knew I could depend on someone like you.

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    Re: Gunman Kills Self and Others at CT Company

    Quote Originally Posted by The Uncola View Post
    Thanks for making my point. I knew I could depend on someone like you.




    WTF does that even mean?


    My one year old could have come up with a better retort than that.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Gunman Kills Self and Others at CT Company

    Sadly,

    I firmly believe, if in fact there were another 20 gun toting red blooded americans around when these shootings occur, who were "pre-tuned" to "High alert" status anyway, (which is why they carry), then a travesty of 5-6 dead would in all probability become a larger travesty of 10-15 dead. As people, we are emotionally driven, sometimes beyond rationale, and i just believe that would lead to larger numbers of victims. To me, that's defeating...and sad....So the question remains, "What do you do?", "How do we solve the problem"?...We can't realistically stop these events from happening, only mitigate the outcomes.

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    Re: Gunman Kills Self and Others at CT Company

    Quote Originally Posted by StaggerLee View Post
    Sadly,

    I firmly believe, if in fact there were another 20 gun toting red blooded americans around when these shootings occur, who were "pre-tuned" to "High alert" status anyway, (which is why they carry), then a travesty of 5-6 dead would in all probability become a larger travesty of 10-15 dead. As people, we are emotionally driven, sometimes beyond rationale, and i just believe that would lead to larger numbers of victims. To me, that's defeating...and sad....So the question remains, "What do you do?", "How do we solve the problem"?...We can't realistically stop these events from happening, only mitigate the outcomes.
    Sir, that makes no sense whatsoever.

    You'd have to assume that 20 CCWs were going to start shooting indiscriminately and with zero judgement and crappy aim to come to that conclusion.



    Depending on what source you believe, approximately 1 person in 50 goes armed regularly. In any given crowd, it is improbable that more than one or two are armed.

    In most states CCW holders have to demonstrate the ability to hit their chosen target consistently with reasonable accuracy. Also, legal training explains that you're responsible regarding where your bullets go... everyone knows that hitting bystanders is BAD, and that AIMING is good.

    Lotta assumptions with no support in your post.

    Available data indicates that armed citizens are more likely to attempt to capture a criminal or make him run than to actually shoot him when such action is realistically possible. Also, while statisical analysis is lacking, available data on actual incidents indicates CCWs are probably less likely to shoot the wrong person or a bystander than police. Possibly this is because they know damn well they'd better be RIGHT when they shoot, because they won't get the slack that cops sometimes get in the event they were wrong.

    It would appear that you lack much knowlege about CCWers and shooting incidents.

    As I've mentioned, I've been training private citizens in shooting skills quite some time, and I've also been a cop. IMHO, most armed citizens I know are not the schmucks you seem to assume they are. Your speculation is without merit.
    Last edited by Goshin; 08-05-10 at 12:42 PM.

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    Re: Gunman Kills Self and Others at CT Company

    Well, for one, it's my "belief", not an argument. And of those who regularly visit and train at the Gun Range on their accuracy, how many have been put in real world situations where now one is biologically gorged with adreline and emotion? Yeah, aiming good, hitting bystanders Bad, all good and well. Hooray for theory. Ive seen Star NBA players who can stand at the freethrow line all day long in practice and never miss. You put them in a playoff situation, and all the sudden they can't find the bottom of the net. Ironic.

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    Re: Gunman Kills Self and Others at CT Company

    Quote Originally Posted by StaggerLee View Post
    Well, for one, it's my "belief", not an argument. And of those who regularly visit and train at the Gun Range on their accuracy, how many have been put in real world situations where now one is biologically gorged with adreline and emotion? Yeah, aiming good, hitting bystanders Bad, all good and well. Hooray for theory. Ive seen Star NBA players who can stand at the freethrow line all day long in practice and never miss. You put them in a playoff situation, and all the sudden they can't find the bottom of the net. Ironic.

    It is well known that stress reduces accuracy. This is taken into account in all quality gun training instruction; certainly when I conduct gun training it is.

    The primary means to compensate is to aim center of mass and shoot with deliberate aim. There are also training methods used by me and many other instructors to condition shooters to deal with adrenaline. One method used is to run the student until they are nearly breathless, then require them to stop on the line and shoot the target. This simulates the physiological conditions associated with the adrenaline rush.

    Also it is more than theory. As an ex-cop I've had exposure to actual shooting incidents, and as a trainer I've known citizens who have been in actual shooting incidents. To be honest I don't see private citizens as being less able to cope than most cops in most cases.

    So, you say you are simply stating your unsupported opinion... all right. My opinion, based on decades of experience, is that your assumptions are wrong and your conclusions are based on a badly biased attitude about armed citizens.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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    Re: Gunman Kills Self and Others at CT Company

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    It is well known that stress reduces accuracy. This is taken into account in all quality gun training instruction; certainly when I conduct gun training it is.

    The primary means to compensate is to aim center of mass and shoot with deliberate aim. There are also training methods used by me and many other instructors to condition shooters to deal with adrenaline. One method used is to run the student until they are nearly breathless, then require them to stop on the line and shoot the target. This simulates the physiological conditions associated with the adrenaline rush.

    Also it is more than theory. As an ex-cop I've had exposure to actual shooting incidents, and as a trainer I've known citizens who have been in actual shooting incidents. To be honest I don't see private citizens as being less able to cope than most cops in most cases.

    So, you say you are simply stating your unsupported opinion... all right. My opinion, based on decades of experience, is that your assumptions are wrong and your conclusions are based on a badly biased attitude about armed citizens.
    Hey, Great. I'm glad somebody has to be right and somebody has to wrong. How would we ever get along otherwise, right? So running oneself breathless and then having them stand motionless on a line to shoot is representative of a "Life and death" situation? Interesting. I had no idea. I think people tend to waive off the power of Human emotion. Regardless, i'm not here to have a boxing match, i'm just here to express my opinion on matters. I can respect your position as an ex cop who lived and breathed those situations routinely, as i an all other non cops don't. And i'm not going to present the assumption that you're wrong because i believe differently. We obviously have different positions. That's all. But thanks for pointing out how wrong and unsupported my "belief" is ...i'll try and keep that in mind...

  10. #80
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    Re: Gunman Kills Self and Others at CT Company

    Quote Originally Posted by StaggerLee View Post
    Sadly,

    I firmly believe, if in fact there were another 20 gun toting red blooded americans around when these shootings occur, who were "pre-tuned" to "High alert" status anyway, (which is why they carry), then a travesty of 5-6 dead would in all probability become a larger travesty of 10-15 dead.
    "pre-tuned" to "high alert" status saves lives period. In fact most police in the field stress constantly to people to be aware of your surroundings at all times, observe and prepare. This means that those CCW holders would under most circumstances have already observed behaviors allowing them to make a plan. As well, and as has been stated CCW permit holders don't engage in indiscriminate fire as the jackass in this news article did. This guy engaged in an ambush and it worked because he had a bunch of defenseless and unaware targets. Your assumptions are laughably false.
    As people, we are emotionally driven, sometimes beyond rationale, and i just believe that would lead to larger numbers of victims.
    This is gross assumption and improvable as well as improbable.
    To me, that's defeating...and sad....So the question remains, "What do you do?", "How do we solve the problem"?...We can't realistically stop these events from happening, only mitigate the outcomes.
    Wrong on many levels. A defenseless public was the problem, you solve that problem by getting out of the way and allowing people to live free and defend themselves, not by hand wringing and more control.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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