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Thread: GOP leader McConnell: Fourteenth Amendment is in need of review

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    Re: GOP leader McConnell: Fourteenth Amendment is in need of review

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    Attacking the foundational principle that all people born in the United States of America are full and equal citizens is about as anti-American as it gets in my opinion. I look around and I see a lot of anti-Americans.

    That isn't anti-American, it's pro-Constitutional law.
    There is no such thing as a “Natural Born Dual-Citizen“.

    Originally Posted by PogueMoran
    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

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    Re: GOP leader McConnell: Fourteenth Amendment is in need of review

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Are you trying to say that foreigners in the United States are not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S. while they are present on U.S. territory?
    Not as far as the definition the authors of the 14th amendment were using for "jurisdiction, no. They were using the idea of "complete jurisdiction".

    There is a fundamental principle of Constitutional Law established by Chief Justice Marshall in Marbury v. Madison which indicated that:

    “It cannot be presumed that any clause in the constitution is intended to be without effect; and therefore such construction is inadmissible, unless the words require it.”

    This has bearing on the interpretation of "jurisdiction" in the 14th Amendment because "Indians not taxed" and "children of Ambassadors" are nowhere referenced. The absence of these two categories further supports the belief that "jurisdiction" in the 14th is the "full jurisdiction" of allegiance, and not jurisdiction "of law" as misapplied by Justice Gray in Wong Kim Ark. If the 14th had referenced "children of Ambassadors" and/or children of "Indians not taxed" this would make those references "form without substance" in regard to the interpretation of jurisdiction being that of allegiance, undermining that interpretation.

    From another site - http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.p...ostcount=25773

    HISTORIC REFERENCES REGARDING "JURISDICTION":

    1866, two years before the 14th Amendment, by U.S. statute Sec. 1992 of U.S. Revised defined who is citizen:
    "All persons born in the United States and not subject to any foreign power ... are declared to be citizens of the United States"


    July 9, 1868: 14th Amendment was ratified

    The 1866 Congressional debates confirm that the two citizenship clauses -- the one in the 14th Amendment, and the one in the 1866 Civil Rights Act -- were intended to have the same meaning and effect. During those debates, the primary framers of the 14th Amendment citizenship clause, Sen. Jacob Howard and Sen. Lyman Trumbull, made it clear that "jurisdiction", as used in the 14th Amendment, means sole and complete U.S. jurisdiction, i.e., not subject to any foreign power:

    Sen. Lyman Trumbull: The provision is, that "all persons born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens." That means "subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof." What do we mean by "complete jurisdiction thereof?" Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means.

    Sen. Jacob Howard: [i] concur entirely with the honorable Senator from Illinois [Trumbull], in holding that the word "jurisdiction," as here employed, ought to be construed so as to imply a full and complete jurisdiction on the part of the United States, coextensive in all respects with the constitutional power of the United States, whether exercised by Congress, by the executive, or by the judicial department; that is to say, the same jurisdiction in extent and quality as applies to every citizen of the United States now.

    Civil Rights Act of 1866: The very same Congress that drafted the 14th Amendment (two months before the 14th, and recognized in Wong Kim Ark) defined citizenship in the first section:

    "all persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed." 112 U.S. 99-103.


    1873, Supreme Court (Slaughterhouse Cases) indicated that the U.S.-born children of foreign citizens (incl. legal residents) are not subject to U.S. jurisdiction, therefore are not U.S. citizens under the 14th Amendment:

    'All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.' ... The phrase, 'subject to its jurisdiction' was intended to exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States. (Slaughter-House Cases, 1873)
    You can try to twist the words of the Constitution and the intentions of the authors of the 14th as Justice Gray did in Wong Kim Ark that gave us the "anchor babies", but the words and intentions are plain and easy to see for any that can read and understand simple English.

    Hopefully Congress will take this up, and end this unlawful invasion of aliens.
    Last edited by RedAkston; 08-09-10 at 11:33 PM. Reason: Edited for Fair Use
    There is no such thing as a “Natural Born Dual-Citizen“.

    Originally Posted by PogueMoran
    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

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    Re: GOP leader McConnell: Fourteenth Amendment is in need of review

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    I forgive you for being like far too many other hyperbolic conservatives in being so deplorably ignorant of American history.
    Coming from you, that is hilarious. (see the above for a history lesson.)
    Consider what happened in America some “four score following the [Constitution's] ratification.” Consider why the fourteenth amendment was necessary at all. The enshrinement in our Constitution of the principle that all persons born in this country are full, equal citizens means there is no underclass in America. It wasn't always so. There use to be an underclass; right up until America conducted the most bloody of all its wars. Some conservatives in this country it seems would like to undo some of that history. They are despicable in my eyes.
    The 14th was strictly about making freed slaves citizens, not about giving citizenship to any person that illegally crosses our border…. That came from a justice that couldn’t read plain, simple English.
    There is no such thing as a “Natural Born Dual-Citizen“.

    Originally Posted by PogueMoran
    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

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    Re: GOP leader McConnell: Fourteenth Amendment is in need of review

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    Conservatives really aren't too interested in conserving the foundations of this nation, are they? No, not lately.

    They've either taken leave of their senses or their principles. — Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid

    Likely, both.
    Not even Lou Dobbs can go along with this latest big of fringe-right nonsense.

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    Re: GOP leader McConnell: Fourteenth Amendment is in need of review

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    You are hopelessly misled by conservative flim-flam artists who have absolutely no clue what that language means and don't want to know. Children of foreign emissaries or enemy soldiers were excluded. Vicious conservatives intentionally misread these phrases to mean more people, many more people, maybe some members of your family, maybe you. Yes, let's see if we can find a reason to exclude you, alleged citizen!
    Damn those flim flam artists that wrote the 14th amendment.. just a bunch of vicious conservatives.

    When are you going to quit listening to the liberal talking points and start thinking for yourself? You’ve been provided with the authors words and intentions about the 14th, and a few court rulings, yet you spew this crap.
    There is no such thing as a “Natural Born Dual-Citizen“.

    Originally Posted by PogueMoran
    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

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    Re: GOP leader McConnell: Fourteenth Amendment is in need of review

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    Not as far as the definition the authors of the 14th amendment were using for "jurisdiction, no. They were using the idea of "complete jurisdiction". …
    Nonsense.

    Are you a plagiarist?

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    Re: GOP leader McConnell: Fourteenth Amendment is in need of review

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    I forgive you for being like far too many other hyperbolic conservatives in being so deplorably ignorant of American history. Consider what happened in America some “four score following the [Constitution's] ratification.” Consider why the fourteenth amendment was necessary at all. The enshrinement in our Constitution of the principle that all persons born in this country are full, equal citizens means there is no underclass in America. It wasn't always so. There use to be an underclass; right up until America conducted the most bloody of all its wars. Some conservatives in this country it seems would like to undo some of that history. They are despicable in my eyes.
    I didn't say I was in favor or against changing the 14th amendment in this thread. I am in favor of a slight change to the amendment. However, I was merely pointing out that this whole "citizenship by soil" did not become part of the Constitution until after the Civil War... I would favor amending it only to provide that the mother be in the U.S. legally when the child is born for citizenship to be conferred... which is probably not nearly as strict as some conservatives would advocate...
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    Re: GOP leader McConnell: Fourteenth Amendment is in need of review

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    You are hopelessly misled by conservative flim-flam artists who have absolutely no clue what that language means and don't want to know. Children of foreign emissaries or enemy soldiers were excluded. Vicious conservatives intentionally misread these phrases to mean more people, many more people, maybe some members of your family, maybe you. Yes, let's see if we can find a reason to exclude you, alleged citizen!
    Because they are not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S. Foreigner residents and visitors (legal or not) are subject to the jurisdiction during the time of their presense, thus the 14th amendment DOES make them citizens. PLease don't make blanket statements regarding Conservatives on this issue. I conceed that they are citizens based on the current writing of the constitution from the adoption of the 14th amendment. However, I do favor amending the 14th amendment as previously stated.
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    Re: GOP leader McConnell: Fourteenth Amendment is in need of review

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post

    "all persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed." 112 U.S. 99-103.
    Do you understand there there are many situations in which the children of foreign nationals residing in the United States would NOT be subject to any foreign power?
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    Re: GOP leader McConnell: Fourteenth Amendment is in need of review

    In this country the sins of the mother are not visited on her child; in America a child enters the world innocent and a full citizen of this country. Can you imagine a twenty five year old who has lived their entire life as an American being told that because it was just discovered that their mother wasn't here legally, something they had no knowledge of or certainly any responsibility for, that they themselves are no longer to be treated as a citizen? It's outrageous and bizarre. Addled brained conservatives (not all conservatives, just the really ****ed up ones) endorse such notions.
    Last edited by Chappy; 08-05-10 at 12:44 PM.
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