Page 13 of 14 FirstFirst ... 311121314 LastLast
Results 121 to 130 of 136

Thread: GOP leader McConnell: Fourteenth Amendment is in need of review

  1. #121
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 11:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: GOP leader McConnell: Fourteenth Amendment is in need of review

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    You're both right, I don't care what Lou Dobbs says, beyond, of course, that he said something right in my opinion. This monument to over-the-top illegal immigration opposition vociferously opposes stripping birthright citizenship from the Constitution because it “is so important.” That kinda leaves the opponents of birthright citizenship even more over-the-top than Lou Dobbs. You gotta admit it, that's very far out there.
    Your attempts to paint the people who disagree with you as fringe are laughable.

    The percentage of people who believe that the children of illegal immigrants should not automatically become citizens is similar to the percentage of people who voted for Obama.

    But yea, those people are all just "very far out there." It's not just another attempt to marginalize those that you disagree with by pretending that they're outside the mainstream.

    Those arguing against birthright citizenship haven't offered anything but something Harry Reid did in 1993 and regretted almost immediately afterward. Even his first generation immigrant wife told him what a fool he had been. “[T]hat is a low point of my legislative career, the low point of my governmental career.” Pretty thin endorsement there.
    How hard is this to understand: The fact that Harry Reid actually proposed this legislation (and now says he regrets it) is relevant in that it puts the lie to his (and your) faux outrage over the fact that some on the right dared to consider the idea.

    I've offered considered opinions as to the worthiness of this cause and you've offered bupkis. I'm with the Constitution and over a hundred of years of Supreme Court precedent and you're … where exactly?
    lol

    Take a second and think about why the current text of the Constitution and SC precedent interpreting that text doesn't do much when the discussion is about changing the underlying text.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  2. #122
    User
    Chappy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    San Francisco
    Last Seen
    04-07-15 @ 01:50 AM
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    2,443
    Blog Entries
    26

    Re: GOP leader McConnell: Fourteenth Amendment is in need of review

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Your attempts to paint the people who disagree with you as fringe are laughable.

    The percentage of people who believe that the children of illegal immigrants should not automatically become citizens is similar to the percentage of people who voted for Obama.
    Actually, that's a straw man. I don't argue that people in favor of changing the fourteenth amendment aren't numerous; it's a popular idea promulgated by irresponsible political opportunists. I ask, is this how conservatives “conserve” American traditions and values? Or is this how conservatives betray them? I think the latter.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    But yea, those people are all just "very far out there." It's not just another attempt to marginalize those that you disagree with by pretending that they're outside the mainstream.
    I rather think conservatives marginalize their own damned selves when they pose as crusaders against “anchor babies.” Now there's an opponent that they know they should be able to handle!

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    How hard is this to understand: The fact that Harry Reid actually proposed this legislation (and now says he regrets it) is relevant in that it puts the lie to his (and your) faux outrage over the fact that some on the right dared to consider the idea.
    Oh, it's all too easy to understand that raising Harry Reid's committee action more than a decade and a half ago gives cover to today's opponents to birthright citizenship. As Harry Reid related in 2006 on the Senate floor, he came to regret his proposed legislation almost immediately after its introduction. He described how his family and his friends all came down hard on him for his shortsightedness. He apologized.

    While it is relevant to raise Reid's error as indicative that even good men have proposed similar ideas, it is also relevant that he was sorry for it in the most public forum imaginable and in the most comprehensible way imaginable.

    You say Harry Reid's error all those years ago “puts the lie” to my outrage; I rather think what happened next bolsters it. Harry Reid was put straight all those years ago and so should the conservative leadership in this country today. What they are doing is wrong and hurtful to America.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Take a second and think about why the current text of the Constitution and SC precedent interpreting that text doesn't do much when the discussion is about changing the underlying text.
    Taking those seconds to understand how the Constitution and Supreme Court's precedents regarding the fourteenth amendment specifically have played out through American history to the present day certainly do a great deal in a discussion about changing the underlying text and how even the suggestion is outrageous and irresponsible.

    It comes down to this that some conservatives see a political opportunity and have seized it; it is a dagger pointed at the American ideal of the equality of man, but, no matter, it might garner them a few extra votes on the side, and, in politics that's what matters. Not the nation. Not its values. What matters to these conservatives is whether they hold the bloody gavel or not.
    “Real environmentalists live in cities, and they visit what's left of the wilderness as gently and respectfully as possible.” — Donna Moulton, letter to the editor, Tucson Weekly, published on August 23, 2001

  3. #123
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:05 AM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,516

    Re: GOP leader McConnell: Fourteenth Amendment is in need of review

    Tell me . . .

    How does ending a policy of automatically granting citizenship to anyone who simply happens to be born within the jurisdiction of the United States drive a dagger through the American ideal of the equality of man?

    Be specific. Don't cop out.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  4. #124
    User
    Chappy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    San Francisco
    Last Seen
    04-07-15 @ 01:50 AM
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    2,443
    Blog Entries
    26

    Re: GOP leader McConnell: Fourteenth Amendment is in need of review

    I am no constitutional lawyer but here's my best description.

    Consider if there were people in our society who were born here, never lived anywhere else, knew no other country, but, they weren't citizens. These people would constitute an underclass in our society. And, what would become of their children? Presumably, two non citizens would give birth to more non citizens which would assure a perpetual underclass. Such was the legacy of the Supreme Court's Dred Scott decision of 1857.

    And, that's the America that the authors of the fourteenth amendment corrected. Not only did they provide for equal protection under the law but they took the question of citizenship out of politics entirely. Born here, you're a citizen! Simple.

    All men are created equal. The promise of the Declaration of Independence was finally fulfilled in the fourteenth amendment and it is birthright citizenship which assures that no underclass grows up in America ever again.
    “Real environmentalists live in cities, and they visit what's left of the wilderness as gently and respectfully as possible.” — Donna Moulton, letter to the editor, Tucson Weekly, published on August 23, 2001

  5. #125
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:05 AM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,516

    Re: GOP leader McConnell: Fourteenth Amendment is in need of review

    A) They would be citizens of some country, so it's not like they'd be in limbo

    B) If they're here, they'd still be entitled to equal protection of the law, just like any other non-citizen who lives here

    and

    C) No one contemplates that there would be no path to citizenship for such a person. The point is that it would not be automatic.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  6. #126
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Naperville, IL
    Last Seen
    09-24-12 @ 02:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    11,963

    Re: GOP leader McConnell: Fourteenth Amendment is in need of review

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Section 1 of the 14th amendment was created to make citizens out of the freed slaves and their descendants. Section 1 of the 14th amendment does not apply to everyone born on US soil.Why else have the Indian citizenship act of 1924 and the nationality act of 1940 if section 1 of the 14th amendment applied to anyone born on US soil? The 14th amendment is simply misused by pro-illegals.
    Oh, the ramblings of fringe-right. Just like the homophobic rhetoric in the gay-rights threads, this type of nonsense will be dialogue in movies 10-20 years from now when we look back upon the tea party as an angry, paranoid, backwards movement...

    People will ask, 'How did so many un-American ideas go around waving a flag, pretending to patriots.'

  7. #127
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 11:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: GOP leader McConnell: Fourteenth Amendment is in need of review

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    Actually, that's a straw man. I don't argue that people in favor of changing the fourteenth amendment aren't numerous; it's a popular idea promulgated by irresponsible political opportunists.
    You claimed this is only supported by a "vicious" and "addle-brained" subset of the conservatives in this country. Unless conservatives constitute a vast majority of the country, that's clearly not possible.

    I ask, is this how conservatives “conserve” American traditions and values? Or is this how conservatives betray them? I think the latter.
    I ask, is this actually a substantive response to the topic we're discussing? Or is it more media matters talking points? I think the latter.


    Oh, it's all too easy to understand that raising Harry Reid's committee action more than a decade and a half ago gives cover to today's opponents to birthright citizenship. As Harry Reid related in 2006 on the Senate floor, he came to regret his proposed legislation almost immediately after its introduction. He described how his family and his friends all came down hard on him for his shortsightedness. He apologized.
    And I'm sure it's inconceivable that a politician would concoct a bull**** story like that 13 years after the fact to provide himself with political cover.

    While it is relevant to raise Reid's error as indicative that even good men have proposed similar ideas, it is also relevant that he was sorry for it in the most public forum imaginable and in the most comprehensible way imaginable.
    Serious question: Do you actually believe a politically convenient quasi-apology by a career politician is "the most comprehensible [sic] way imaginable" to apologize? Really?

    Taking those seconds to understand how the Constitution and Supreme Court's precedents regarding the fourteenth amendment specifically have played out through American history to the present day certainly do a great deal in a discussion about changing the underlying text and how even the suggestion is outrageous and irresponsible.
    How on earth is this a response to my point? The fact that there are years of precedents does not prove anything one way or the other about the value of the underlying issue.

    There's a sublime irony in seeing a liberal such as yourself argue that we shouldn't consider changing our policies because there's an entrenched history of doing things one particular way under the constitution. If I made that same argument in regards to any of a dozen other topics, you'd be falling all over yourself to point out how regressive I am for opposing your desired changes.
    Last edited by RightinNYC; 08-17-10 at 12:37 AM.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  8. #128
    User
    Chappy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    San Francisco
    Last Seen
    04-07-15 @ 01:50 AM
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    2,443
    Blog Entries
    26

    Re: GOP leader McConnell: Fourteenth Amendment is in need of review

    Wait … before we go on … I have to know whether you two are citizens per the rules you are advocating … so, if you are legal immigrants then you two should have all the paperwork readily at hand, no problem … but, if you were actually born in this country, then I'll need to see your parents' papers, since the only way you could be considered a citizen would be if they are legal immigrants, too, right? … But, if in fact they were born in this country, then, yes, I'll be needing your grandparents' immigration documentation because your parents couldn't be citizens unless your grandparents came here legally and can prove it … And, if they were born in this country, then congratulations you're at least a fourth generation American but still not necessarily a citizen — for that status, I'll be requiring your great grandparents documentation because as you plainly understand you're not a citizen unless you can prove an unbroken chain of legal immigration.

    Now if this documentation is eluding you, we'll help you out, make a quick determination of your most likely country of citizenship (obviously not the U.S.) and send you where you rightfully belong. Hope you know the language!
    Last edited by Chappy; 08-17-10 at 03:19 AM.
    “Real environmentalists live in cities, and they visit what's left of the wilderness as gently and respectfully as possible.” — Donna Moulton, letter to the editor, Tucson Weekly, published on August 23, 2001

  9. #129
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 11:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: GOP leader McConnell: Fourteenth Amendment is in need of review

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    Wait … before we go on … I have to know whether you two are citizens per the rules you are advocating … so, if you are legal immigrants then you two should have all the paperwork readily at hand, no problem … but, if you were actually born in this country, then I'll need to see your parents' papers, since the only way you could be considered a citizen would be if they are legal immigrants, too, right? … But, if in fact they were born in this country, then, yes, I'll be needing your grandparents' immigration documentation because your parents couldn't be citizens unless your grandparents came here legally and can prove it … And, if they were born in this country, then congratulations you're at least a fourth generation American but still not necessarily a citizen — for that status, I'll be requiring your great grandparents documentation because as you plainly understand you're not a citizen unless you can prove an unbroken chain of legal immigration.

    Now if this documentation is eluding you, we'll help you out, make a quick determination of your most likely country of citizenship (obviously not the U.S.) and send you where you rightfully belong. Hope you know the language!
    Since you clearly won't address the points that have been raised (and don't appear to understand them, if this poorly constructed response is any indication), I'll take this as an admission that you're wrong.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  10. #130
    User
    Chappy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    San Francisco
    Last Seen
    04-07-15 @ 01:50 AM
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    2,443
    Blog Entries
    26

    Re: GOP leader McConnell: Fourteenth Amendment is in need of review

    One conservative has opted-out of the conversation; perhaps he no longer wishes to associate himself with the addle-brained conservatives who can't even follow the logic of their own position on the issue. Or willfully ignore how birthright citizenship historically has prevented a permanent underclass from forming here. Or how some conservatives by viciously attacking birthright citizenship, far from “conserving” American ideals, are effectively tearing them down.

    Perhaps, it is anyone of these things but, no, I rather think this departing conservative has left the conversation because he didn't want to answer a simple question: under his own proposal, can he prove he is a citizen of this country? As it turns out such a simple question is not so easy to answer if a birth certificate with an American address is insufficient. One has to trace the legal status of your ancestors in this country, demonstrating an unbroken chain of citizenship to establish your own. It could get complicated. Papers get lost. Do step-fathers count? And, what if one of those ancestors turned out to be illegal. Would that make you one-quarter non citizen? One eighth? Are you less a citizen then? Maybe you only get to vote in three out of four elections. Or do you get to vote at all? And, of course, your standing as a citizen could be diminished further by one new discovery in the family's past, or, one slightly more restrictive law on citizenship requirements. America has been there, done that.

    And, what of the other conservative? Will he now trace his citizenship for us so that we may know his bona fides? A simple question, yes?
    “Real environmentalists live in cities, and they visit what's left of the wilderness as gently and respectfully as possible.” — Donna Moulton, letter to the editor, Tucson Weekly, published on August 23, 2001

Page 13 of 14 FirstFirst ... 311121314 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •