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Ground zero mosque wins key vote

independent_thinker2002 said:
That's equally ridiculous.
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As silly as painting an entire religion (Christianity) on what a few nutjobs did with abortion clinics? Because I've seen it. Or say painting Christian's as evil as radical Muslim's are because of the Crusades? Yep, check....


j-mac
 
I've not seen many people, save for some of the most militant athiests, argue that Christians are as evil as muslims because of the crusades. What I've seen is people make the suggestion that Christianity can be USED for evil and can be twisted and has had its black eyes of barbarity similar to what Islam has by pointing to the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Witch Trials, and onwards. Which is an entirely legitimate argument and speaks more towards the ability for religions to be misused by culture and societies seeking to have a tool to manipulate people into evil things rather than speaking to the inate "evilness" of a religion.
 
Zyphlin said:
I've not seen many people, save for some of the most militant athiests, argue that Christians are as evil as muslims because of the crusades. What I've seen is people make the suggestion that Christianity can be USED for evil and can be twisted and has had its black eyes of barbarity similar to what Islam has by pointing to the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Witch Trials, and onwards. Which is an entirely legitimate argument and speaks more towards the ability for religions to be misused by culture and societies seeking to have a tool to manipulate people into evil things rather than speaking to the inate "evilness" of a religion.
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Try and bare with me...Hope it doesn't kill you!

Here is a very fine and difficult line. We are fighting a war on Terror in Iraq, Afghanistan, and a few other places. One of our potential war zones is Iran. The most common characteristic in almost all cases is that the Islamic religion cannot be separated from the people, the war or the terrorists. It is integral. Because of the nature of Islam, those countries are virtually 100% Islamic and the religion is a central part of the reasons for conflict. It is impossible to discuss what they do, why they do it and how to combat them without the religion coming into discussion.
 
j-mac said:
As silly as painting an entire religion (Christianity) on what a few nutjobs did with abortion clinics? Because I've seen it. Or say painting Christian's as evil as radical Muslim's are because of the Crusades? Yep, check....


j-mac
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Is that supposed to justify your post?
 
ric27 said:
More than what YOU imagine

I'd love to hear about this

I don't think it is much of a stretch at all to say that 90% of all significant terrorist incidents in the last 50 years have been perpetrated by Muslim terrorists in the name of Islam...True or false? and their official voices do not condemn the groups that commit these acts - at best, they express regret at the loss of life. Not the same thing at all, dude
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No one's denying that some Muslims are terrorists. What others don't buy into is that 90% of Muslims are terrorists or terrorist supporters.

Agent Ferris said:
Which mainstream branch of Islam doesn't proscribe the death penalty and/or corporal punishment for homosexuality, apostasy, adultery, and/or premarital sex?
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Why don't you ask the average Muslim on their opinion f executing these people, not some theocratic government.

j-mac said:
Palestine.





j-mac
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Uh, so a group of Palestinians are most Muslims?
 
baldwin of flanders isn't bothering anyone

at least, not in new york
 
ric27 said:
Try and bare with me...Hope it doesn't kill you!

Here is a very fine and difficult line. We are fighting a war on Terror in Iraq, Afghanistan, and a few other places. One of our potential war zones is Iran. The most common characteristic in almost all cases is that the Islamic religion cannot be separated from the people, the war or the terrorists. It is integral. Because of the nature of Islam, those countries are virtually 100% Islamic and the religion is a central part of the reasons for conflict. It is impossible to discuss what they do, why they do it and how to combat them without the religion coming into discussion.
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America's two major conflicts in the Cold War were in Asian countries. A common characteristic of these people is that they're Asian. Asians are un-American Totalitarians.
 
Coronado said:
Yeah, yeah. We're all 6'1" and athletic on the internet.
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Hate to burst your bubble, but its true. Generally, I'm fiscally conservative, socially liberal and believe in an "America first" foreign policy
 
ric27 said:
Hate to burst your bubble, but its true. Generally, I'm fiscally conservative, socially liberal and believe in an "America first" foreign policy
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Socially liberal? Really? Come on, be honest here ;)
 
Guy Incognito said:
Socially liberal? Really? Come on, be honest here ;)
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I think that people should be allowed to own and carry military firearms if they want to. I think that gays can get married and do whatever they want to as long as they don't **** with me. I don't care about abortion, because I don't think killing is wrong. I'd rather not see abortion used as birth control, but I think it's better than having stupid poor people breeding prodigiously. I believe that the federal government should concentrate on the basics, like border security and leave states rights alone. States should be able to do just about anything they want to.
 
Ikari said:
Wow. I mean, do you have stats that back up anything you're saying here? Or is this just ramblings off the top of your head based on your own bias and bigotry. I've known several Muslims, none of them match your description. In fact, my Muslim roommate often volunteered in the local soup kitchen and homeless shelters in town. He liked it. How many Christians have done good? How many go out (as a percentage of the community) and actually work to improve the impoverished? I know several, but there are a lot more Christians than Muslims (in America), so relatively the number of Christians should be greater. And what does any of this have to do with the first amendment and property rights?
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There is not one branch of mainstream Islam that does not proscribe the death penalty and/or capital punishment for such heinious crimes as homosexuality, apostasy, adultery, and/or premarital sex. Those are the mainstream views in fact they are the only accepted views held in modern Islam. Do all Muslims support those views? No. Does that say ANYTHING about Islam itself? No.
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
Islam is not at war. That idea is ridiculous.

If a lady says that Jesus told her to drown her five kids in the bathtub do you blame all of Christianity?
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Yes I most certainly due because in that case the church she was attending directly contributed to her apocalyptic delusions, she had postpartum depression and the church she was going to threw fuel on the fire.
 
Zyphlin said:
I've not seen many people, save for some of the most militant athiests, argue that Christians are as evil as muslims because of the crusades. What I've seen is people make the suggestion that Christianity can be USED for evil and can be twisted and has had its black eyes of barbarity similar to what Islam has by pointing to the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Witch Trials, and onwards. Which is an entirely legitimate argument and speaks more towards the ability for religions to be misused by culture and societies seeking to have a tool to manipulate people into evil things rather than speaking to the inate "evilness" of a religion.
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No it's not a legitimate argument I am one of those militant atheists you speak of, but the fact of the matter is that the Christian crusades were a defensive response to Islamic imperialist expansionism, and more people are killed by Islamists every year in the name of Islam than the witch trials and Spanish Inquisition killed during their entire tenure. Yes Christianity is violent, but nowhere near as violent as Islam which was born of the sword and created by a man who conducted genocide and ethnic cleansing against the Jewish Banu tribes of the Arabian Peninsula.
 
Agent Ferris said:
There is not one branch of mainstream Islam that does not proscribe the death penalty and/or capital punishment for such heinious crimes as homosexuality, apostasy, adultery, and/or premarital sex. Those are the mainstream views in fact they are the only accepted views held in modern Islam. Do all Muslims support those views? No. Does that say ANYTHING about Islam itself? No.
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Well I personally have not met Muslims whom claim they want to put the gays to death or anything. I think what it really shows that in a healthy atmosphere of free religious expression that these radical ideals in some religions can be toned down. Wherein a system such as a theocracy, they would be exacerbated. And I think that's really what we see going on in today's world. The places where we see the most intolerance and violence called for by those of Muslim faith tend to be more theocratic. And while we can get those people here in America as well, Islam has been practiced here for quite some time with little to no negative effects. A place like America can really foster religions and allow them the freedom to operate without State control and because of that the religion can flourish and grow.

Christianity had a very similar problem. A lot of the manipulation of Christianity into excuses for war happened in very theocratic States. But over time, we realized the problem with that and divorced government from religion and we've seen our religions grow and flourish into peaceful practices.
 
Ikari said:
Well I personally have not met Muslims whom claim they want to put the gays to death or anything. I think what it really shows that in a healthy atmosphere of free religious expression that these radical ideals in some religions can be toned down.
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These are not the radical views, they are the only views accepted within mainstream Islam today.

Wherein a system such as a theocracy, they would be exacerbated.
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The guy responsible for this mosque wants a sharia compliant U.S..

And I think that's really what we see going on in today's world. The places where we see the most intolerance and violence called for by those of Muslim faith tend to be more theocratic. And while we can get those people here in America as well, Islam has been practiced here for quite some time with little to no negative effects.
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There's simply not enough people following the ideology for it to have much of an effect. Just because American Nazi's didn't have any negative effects on America doesn't mean that their ideology was positive.

A place like America can really foster religions and allow them the freedom to operate without State control and because of that the religion can flourish and grow.

Christianity had a very similar problem. A lot of the manipulation of Christianity into excuses for war happened in very theocratic States. But over time, we realized the problem with that and divorced government from religion and we've seen our religions grow and flourish into peaceful practices.
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I'm not aware of any poll for America but the polls I've seen from overseas demonstrate that the majority of Muslims in the west want Sharia.
 
Agent Ferris said:
These are not the radical views, they are the only views accepted within mainstream Islam today.
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And they are expressed most fervently in the countries of Islamic theocracy. Many of the Muslims in America don't express those beliefs.

Agent Ferris said:
The guy responsible for this mosque wants a sharia compliant U.S..
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Well as I said before, that guy can wish in one hand and **** in the other and see which one fills up first. He can wish all he wants for Sharia law in the US, but he's just SOL on that one. Any attempt to institute it should be seen as unconstitutional as the practical aspect of the law is violation of the rights and liberties of the individual.

Agent Ferris said:
There's simply not enough people following the ideology for it to have much of an effect. Just because American Nazi's didn't have any negative effects on America doesn't mean that their ideology was positive.
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Alright, fair enough. Nothing said it was positive. I do think that all religion has the potential for positive or negative effects depending on how the people of the State use the religion.

Agent Ferris said:
I'm not aware of any poll for America but the polls I've seen from overseas demonstrate that the majority of Muslims in the west want Sharia.
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And some may, but that's just too bad for them.
 
Ikari said:
And they are expressed most fervently in the countries of Islamic theocracy. Many of the Muslims in America don't express those beliefs.
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Which says absolutely nothing about the ideology itself. And why would they follow a religion which they don't believe in? It's like a pro-gay marriage pro-choice Catholic.
 
Agent Ferris said:
Which says absolutely nothing about the ideology itself. And why would they follow a religion which they don't believe in? It's like a pro-gay marriage pro-choice Catholic.
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I'm not disputing that. My point was that in the proper environment any religion can lose its adherence to these violent and unjust tenants.
 
Ikari said:
I'm not disputing that. My point was that in the proper environment any religion can lose its adherence to these violent and unjust tenants.
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Islam CANNOT. Its theologically impossible to change the Koran (though it could be argued its possible to add and subtract hadith from the 'good' and 'bad' pile). Islam is a fixed state religion, irrevocably frozen in its form. Change it and its no longer Islam - and since Islam is perfect and literally true then why would Muslims want to change it?

Show me wrong
 
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