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Ground zero mosque wins key vote

I don't see what the big deal is about it. Just another ****ing church. Big whoop.

I'm betting people didn't protest any churches being built near the OK city bombing area even though McVeigh was christian

McVeigh was agnostic. These people have the right to have their shrine to oppression being placed where followers of their oppressive ideology killed three thousand of my kith in the name of that oppressive ideology, but that doesn't mean that I have to like it or that I shouldn't protest against it.
 
I suppose I should be used to it, but the level of racism on display by opponents of the mosque continues to astound me. Are people really advocating that peaceful and law abiding Muslims (read: the vast majority of all Muslims, all people for that matter, are peaceful and law abiding) should just give up their legal rights because it may offend some people? Since when is offending ignorant bigots even worth consideration? As I recall, there were a lot of people who were "offended" when they desegregated public schools, and that is precisely the side of the argument that the people who oppose this mosque are falling on right now. I mean, this is just naked racism we're talking about! What on earth is wrong with you people?!

I understand is that Islam is a grave threat to world peace. Islam is not compatible with our own Constitution. Islam is the antithesis of Christianity and Judaism and Islam is the evil of the wolf dressed in the clothing of a sheep.

No one will move out of my position. I simply DO NOT want to build a bridge to enable honor killings, wife beheadings and the elimination of liberty on our shores.
 
I understand is that Islam is a grave threat to world peace. Islam is not compatible with our own Constitution. Islam is the antithesis of Christianity and Judaism and Islam is the evil of the wolf dressed in the clothing of a sheep.

No one will move out of my position. I simply DO NOT want to build a bridge to enable honor killings, wife beheadings and the elimination of liberty on our shores.

Thank you for epitomizing exactly what I was referring to. It's remarkable how little people who claim to "know" so much about Islam actually understand about Islam. To say that "Islam is not compatible with our own Constitution" evinces such a deep misunderstanding of both Islam and the Constitution that I don't even know where to begin.

I'll start with Islam. Those things you mention, honor killings and the like, are not Islam. Not anymore than lynching and cross burning is Christianity. All cultures, all people, have despicable aspects, be they honor killings, apartheid, what have you. But you can't conflate a culture's shortcomings with the religion practiced by that culture.

As for the Constitution, you just have to read the first amendment to see how Islam is compatible with it.
 
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Thank you for epitomizing exactly what I was referring to. It's remarkable how little people who claim to "know" so much about Islam actually understand about Islam. To say that "Islam is not compatible with our own Constitution" evinces such a deep misunderstanding of both Islam and the Constitution that I don't even know where to begin.

I'll start with Islam. Those things you mention, honor killings and the like, are not Islam. Not anymore than lynching and cross burning is Christianity. All cultures, all people, have despicable aspects, be they honor killings, apartheid, what have you. But you can't conflate a culture's shortcomings with the religion practiced by that culture.

As for the Constitution, you just have to read the first amendment to see how Islam is compatible with it.

Yes, Sharia Law and The Bill of Rights go hand in hand.

I also note you have failed to show one incident of "racism" in this thread.
 
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I also note you have failed to show one incident of "racism" in this thread.

Well, considering that race is a myth with absolutely no scientific foundation, it might be fair to say that we're not really talking about a "racial" group here. And even if we are to subscribe to such an outmoded theory as race, it is certainly true that Islam is comprised of many "races" so to be anti-Islamic does not necessarily make one "racist."

But on the other hand, it is all basically the same thing and it is disingenuous to deny that fact. Bigotry is bigotry whether it is a "racist" or "Anti-Islamic" or "the Tea Party" or whatever you feel like calling it that day. It's all evil and abhorrent and the worst parts of human nature. It's fear of the other, plain and simple.
 
Race is a myth what?

Anyways I feel indifferent on the whole thing but just goes to show how much better United States is than say, Iran or Saudi Arabia. This kind of stuff would not fly in either one of those countries.
 
Yes, Sharia Law and The Bill of Rights go hand in hand.

I also note you have failed to show one incident of "racism" in this thread.

The problem, Vic, is that there are a ton of Christians in the U.S. who would like to mandate old testament law as the law of the land, too. They would like their religious beliefs to supercede everything else. That's not so different from wanting Sharia Law, when you think abou tit.

And both are equally incompatible with our constitution and bill of rights. The solution isn't to villify all Christians, but to keep on demonstrating the benefits of the rule of law. We don't do that by trampling on people's religious rights.

The proper, historic American response to this was summed up best by Thomas Jefferson:

"I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others."
--Thomas Jefferson

And, here is another relevant thought:

"Once you attempt legislation upon religious grounds, you open the way for every kind of intolerance and religious persecution."
--William Butler Yeats

I defend the rights of these people to worship according to the dictates of their conscience because, by doing so, I defend my own. And for that matter, yours.

I may thing that religion is wholy stupid (I do), but I would defend the rights of any man to worship as he sees fit.

That's WHY I will defend these people.

And, by doing so, I am defending exactly what it means to be American.

See, I have faith, but not in religions. I have faith in our founding documents and the core principles of this country that have made us the the place on this earth where men are most free. My faith in who and what we are is so strong that whether these people mean us well or ill, I believe that America itself will eventually supercede it and turn it to good. By being true to ourselves, by being true to our founding documents, and not allowing our every decision to be tainted by fear, we show what America really is.

I would encourage you to have faith, as well, in America...in what it means to be American.
 
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I don't see what the big deal is about it. Just another ****ing church. Big whoop.

I'm betting people didn't protest any churches being built near the OK city bombing area even though McVeigh was christian

God damnit I hate ignorant **** like this and you're better than this Riv.

There is no legitimate, reasonable way in which to compare the OKC bomber to those of 9/11 in regards to religion. The central point of McVeigh's anger that led to his bombing of the OKC building was his hatred for the government and their infringement on liberteries. He cited his opposition to the brady bill, increased taxes, the demonization of militias, and the raids on Ruby Ridge and Waco primarily due to their basis founded in position of large amounts of firearms. McVeigh professed that while he believed in "a god", that he had "lost touch with" his religion and never really picked it back up. He had made claims of being agnostic, not believing in hell, and that "science is my religion". There is nothing within McVeigh's history close around the bombing to suggest that Christianity had a significant impact in his decision.

The continual and repeated attempt to use revisionist history to make Timothy Mcveigh to appear an extremist christian whose terrorist attack was motivated based on his christian beliefs, principles, and views is a tired and fraudulent one that is annoying to watch how often its thrown out. Even more than that, when comparing it to 9/11 which was unquestionably at the very least tied towards religious motivations if not fueled primarily and throughout by religious motivations it is disgusting to even see it. While some may claim that there are political reasons why 9/11 happened as well, those political reasons are motivated due to the religious beliefs of the people. There is no evidence that McVeigh's political issues were motivated by a deep seeded religious belief. The two are not analogous in any way.
 
The people building this mosque are either gigantic douches, completely ****ing morons, or dishonest lying assholes.

That said, nothing is illegal about being any of those things and buying land or making a building.

So the gigantic douches/****ing morons/dishonest lying assholes should be free to build this without the government attempting to retroactively make laws that deny them the ability to do so.
 
So the gigantic douches/****ing morons/dishonest lying assholes should be free to build this without the government attempting to retroactively make laws that deny them the ability to do so.

Correction: The people who are building this mosque are courageous people of faith, bravely putting up with small mindedness and bigotry. But how nice of you to condescend to admit that they are within their inalienable rights.
 
Correction: The people who are building this mosque are courageous people of faith, bravely putting up with small mindedness and bigotry. But how nice of you to condescend to admit that they are within their inalienable rights.

I disagree. I don't particularly like Islam, in general. I think it's largely anti-women and it's based upon a pretty contemptuous small-minded deity who appears to hate everyone for no good reason. And, the people who follow this particular path tend to be looking for ammunition to reinforce their own insecurities about women, female sexuality, equal rights, and their own bodies.

However, having said that, America doesn't mean that we have to think that everything around us is sweetness and light. People have a right to be assholes, within the limits of the law, if that is their wish.

That means that, as contemptible as I find those loud-mouthed anti-gay morons from Kansas who protest at funerals to be, I will still defend their rights to speak and believe as they choose.

Being an American doesn't mean that we have to like everyone. It does mean we have to tolerate them, though, no matter how ridiculous their beliefs might be.

I hold the same opinion of white supremacists, for the record. They have a right to speak, and show the world that they're ignorant, inbred, dickless wonders.
 
Correction: The people who are building this mosque are courageous people of faith, bravely putting up with small mindedness and bigotry. But how nice of you to condescend to admit that they are within their inalienable rights.



No they are assholes, looking for attention, who insult thier own religion and other muslims by using thier God as a prop for political nonsense.
 
No they are assholes, looking for attention, who insult thier own religion and other muslims by using thier God as a prop for political nonsense.

So? I can't swing a dead cat in my neighborhood without hitting a religious asshole.

You say this like it is somehow uncommon, that religious assholes use their god as a prop for political nonsense. Jeez, Rev, that happens every single day. Dealing with religious assholes is part of living in America.

I don't know why Manhattan should somehow be immune to what those of us in flyover America deal with daily.
 
So? I can't swing a dead cat in my neighborhood without hitting a religious asshole.

You say this like it is somehow uncommon, that religious assholes use their god as a prop for political nonsense. Jeez, Rev, that happens DAILY.



Not around here.... I very rarely here about gods and what not, this is NYC afterall....
 
I disagree. I don't particularly like Islam, in general. I think it's largely anti-women and it's based upon a pretty contemptuous small-minded deity who appears to hate everyone for no good reason. And, the people who follow this particular path tend to be looking for ammunition to reinforce their own insecurities about women, female sexuality, equal rights, and their own bodies.

Well, I'm sorry that you feel this way, Catz, but we have to agree to disagree. I think you're making a mistake by viewing all of Islam as the equivalent of Christian extremists. Islam is no different than Christianity, there are conservatives and there are liberals, there are people who live peacefully and there are people who try to force their views on others. It's the same with every religion, but the people who take it too far aren't the religion itself. I'd argue that you might have issues with certain elements within Islam, but not Islam itself.
 
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Correction: The people who are building this mosque are courageous people of faith, bravely putting up with small mindedness and bigotry. But how nice of you to condescend to admit that they are within their inalienable rights.

That's wonderful you think that.

I think they're either giant douches, flamingly ignorant, or dishonest assholes.

The reaction that has occured to this should've been obvious to anyone that had any knowledge at all about the attitudes towards 9/11 and specifically towards Islam when being stated along side talk of 9/11.

If they didn't know, or they thought it wouldn't be a problem then they were either amazingly ignorant of how many Americans think or are just ignorant all together to know it and just think it wouldn't matter and somehow they'd still be able to "Build Bridges" to people in a place whose very presense angers and alienates the very people needing bridges built to.

OR

They knew full well how people would react, and basically say "well **** them, I want this mosque right here, refuse to do it anywhere else, and to hell with a large amoutn of people who are going to be severely upset about this due to possibly the most tragic event in the nations history and my religions connection to it".

OR

They're completely dishonest assholes lying about the whole "Building Bridges" bull**** because they know full well they're not going to be successful at building bridges to people by essentially pissing off the very people who need bridges built to reach and making the location of your "bridge building" project somewhere they'll never wish to visit on principle.
 
OR

They are brave people of faith who, fully aware that a certain small minded and bigoted segment of Americans would be up in arms and potentially violent about a mosque being built there, or anywhere at all for that matter, have decided to withstand the intimidation and hate coming from this unfortunate segment of Americans and build this mosque in an effort to increase tolerance and peace between the world's two largest religions. They refuse to accept blame for the crimes of a few fringe terrorists, nor should they, despite that fact that many ignorant people attribute blame for 9/11 to all Muslims. They have nothing but a peaceful interest in building this mosque and no connection with these criminals whatsoever, and the best efforts of racists and demagogues everywhere haven't shown even a shred of evidence otherwise.

It's akin to the bus boycott in Birmingham, and you, Zyphlin are saying the equivalent of "if they don't move to the back of the bus, they must be giant douches, flamingly ignorant, or dishonest assholes." Not so.
 
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OR

They are brave people of faith who, fully aware that a certain small minded and bigoted segment of Americans would be up in arms and potentially violent about a mosque being built there, or anywhere at all for that matter, have decided to withstand the intimidation and hate coming from this unfortunate segment of Americans and build this mosque in an effort to increase tolerance and peace between the world's two largest religions. They refuse to accept blame for the crimes of a few fringe terrorists, nor should they, despite that fact that many ignorant people attribute blame for 9/11 to all Muslims. They have nothing but a peaceful interest in building this mosque and no connection with these criminals whatsoever, and the best efforts of racists and demagogues everywhere haven't shown even a shred of evidence otherwise.

It's akin to the bus boycott in Birmingham, and you, Zyphlin are saying the equivalent of "if they don't move to the back of the bus, they must be giant douches, flamingly ignorant, or dishonest assholes." Not so.




The imam of this mosque blames the US for 911, won't call hammas a terrorist organization, and made excuses for islamisicts... how "brave"
 
1. some of you need to clean up your language, you're gross

2. if cordoba really wants to promote better relations it probably shouldn't go around so openly provoking the overwhelming majority of its neighbors

3. this mosque will never be built---if it could be up in a day, that'd be done, but it will take months, even years, to build this, and the outcry will get louder, the political heat will grow unendurable

4. no mosque, yet still a big political price to pay for not opposing it, for appearing to sympathize with it, in open defiance of the heartfelt sentiments of the larger community

party on, progressives!
 
OR

They are brave people of faith who, fully aware that a certain small minded and bigoted segment of Americans would be up in arms and potentially violent about a mosque being built there

First, you make the mistake of lumping together the segment that are bothered by this, which is decently sizable, and the segment that would act violently, which is ridiculously small.

Second, The "small minded" or "bigoted" segment (Thank you by the way for your wonderful bigoted insult to anyone that dares disagree with you, well done) are the ones needing to have any "bridges" built to them as one does not need to "build bridges" to people who you've already reached. So if they know full well that its going to piss those people off, yet they still are claiming their purpose is to build bridges, then again they're either idiots or lying.

or anywhere at all for that matter

Yes, becuase we all know that there's been no mosques constructed since 9/11 anywhere in this country at all that hasn't turned into a national headline story.

:roll:

have decided to withstand the intimidation and hate coming from this unfortunate segment of Americans

Of which is the ones whose proposed purpose of said building would be aiming at...you're just lending credit to my "lying or ignorant" argument.

and build this mosque in an effort to increase tolerance and peace between the world's two largest religions.

Increase it between who? The people who have no problem with Islam in any way shape or form and are perfectly fine with it? What's the point in that? What's the goal in that? What bridges are being built with that? "Hey, I got a great idea, I'm going to try to create new fans of the Redskins by preaching how great the Redskins are to other people that like the Redskins".

The people needing an "increased" of tolerance and peace are the people who are relatively neutral or slightly negative about Islam or portions of Islam on up to people who flat out hate Islam. These people are the same group of people who, by the act of placing the Mosque where it is, you're actively pissing off and ostrecizing from the beginning.

Seriously man, you're making my argument for me.

They refuse to accept blame for the crimes of a few fringe terrorists, nor should they, despite that fact that many ignorant people attribute blame for 9/11 to all Muslims.

Whose saying they should accept the blame for the crimes? I'm most certainly not and you are responding to me.

I'm saying that its completely reasonable and understandable for people to have severe negative emotions occur within them when one places 9/11 and Islam together in a close proximity in ones mind due to the undeniable and unquestionable fact that ISLAM was instrumental in the occurance of 9/11. And, as such, because of that completely reasonable and understandable reaction, placing a Mosque...and not just any mosque, but a mosque dedicated to "outreach" meaning its continually making its presense known...within the shadow of the former Trade Centers is amazingly tactless. It is creating an atmosphere where those coming to mourn that devestating day are having emotional triggers that generate excessive negative feelings when its frankly not needed. Not to mention the very location of it HURTS their supposed cause of mending fences and building bridges and "out reach" BECAUSE it appears as nothing but Muslims being unempathetic to what helped cause that day which simply reinforces much of the antipathy that many people have wrongly towards the religion as a whole.

Are ALL muslims terrorists? No. Are ALL muslims responsible for 9/11? No. Did Islam play a central role in 9/11? Absolutely.

All alcohol isn't bad, all people who consume alcohol aren't criminals, but I wouldn't find it to be a tactful thing to build a Bru-Threw on the location of a massive traffic accident caused in large part by drunk driving.

They have nothing but a peaceful interest in building this mosque and no connection with these criminals whatsoever, and the best efforts of racists and demagogues everywhere haven't shown even a shred of evidence otherwise.

Oh look, more bigoted insults directed at anyone that dares disagree with you. So, lets chalk this up so far. "Anyone that disagree with Guy's stance on this are simple minded, bigoted, racist, demagogues". What an amazingly simple minded presentation of demagogury proclaiming your wonderfully stereotyped and over generalized bigoted argument. Bravo!
 
hey, we're gonna improve relations around here

and if you don't like it, you can just lump it
 
Well, I'm sorry that you feel this way, Catz, but we have to agree to disagree. I think you're making a mistake by viewing all of Islam as the equivalent of Christian extremists. Islam is no different than Christianity, there are conservatives and there are liberals, there are people who live peacefully and there are people who try to force their views on others. It's the same with every religion, but the people who take it too far aren't the religion itself. I'd argue that you might have issues with certain elements within Islam, but not Islam itself.

I think 97% of evangelical fundamentalists are assholes, too, for what it's worth. Catholics and the mainline protestants don't annoy me nearly as much. Hope that helps.
 
1. some of you need to clean up your language, you're gross

2. if cordoba really wants to promote better relations it probably shouldn't go around so openly provoking the overwhelming majority of its neighbors

3. this mosque will never be built---if it could be up in a day, that'd be done, but it will take months, even years, to build this, and the outcry will get louder, the political heat will grow unendurable

4. no mosque, yet still a big political price to pay for not opposing it, for appearing to sympathize with it, in open defiance of the heartfelt sentiments of the larger community

party on, progressives!

Apparently, using the term asshole causes you to type in complete sentences. I for one will keep it up.
 
1. some of you need to clean up your language, you're gross

2. if cordoba really wants to promote better relations it probably shouldn't go around so openly provoking the overwhelming majority of its neighbors

3. this mosque will never be built---if it could be up in a day, that'd be done, but it will take months, even years, to build this, and the outcry will get louder, the political heat will grow unendurable

4. no mosque, yet still a big political price to pay for not opposing it, for appearing to sympathize with it, in open defiance of the heartfelt sentiments of the larger community

party on, progressives!

It's a free ****ing country! Why the **** should I try to stop some ****ty ass people trying to build a dumbass mosque near ground zero? I don't ****ing care, no skin off my teeth. Let the assholes do what they want and ****ing ignore the mother****ers. What the **** is so hard about that ****? Seriously.

[psst...did I sufficiently violate number 1?]
 
Well, considering that race is a myth with absolutely no scientific foundation, it might be fair to say that we're not really talking about a "racial" group here. And even if we are to subscribe to such an outmoded theory as race, it is certainly true that Islam is comprised of many "races" so to be anti-Islamic does not necessarily make one "racist."

But on the other hand, it is all basically the same thing and it is disingenuous to deny that fact. Bigotry is bigotry whether it is a "racist" or "Anti-Islamic" or "the Tea Party" or whatever you feel like calling it that day. It's all evil and abhorrent and the worst parts of human nature. It's fear of the other, plain and simple.

You sir, are the one that called some of us Racist. I asked you to show us some examples of this. You have yet to do this and in fact have created this rather odd sidestep of the issue to try and say there is "Bigotry" really, fear.

So show us this Bigotry, this fear, this... evil as you call it.

I've read your other posts, it appears that anyone that dares to disagree with your stance is a Bigot, a Racist, ignorant and or evil. That doesn't really lend credibility to you OR your position. It appears you are so convinced your politically correct cheerleading of this Mosque gives you some moral right to attack, insult and denigrate anyone that is against it. No matter the reasoned posts as to why, evidence (such as this Imam's support for Hamas, calls for Sharia to be the law of the land, blaming the USA for 911...) or other information. You have cast all whom do not support this Mosque as inbred knuckledragging Klanners prone to violence and full of ignorance, hate and sheer stupidity.

The really sad part here is, that you really DO think you are right, and HAVE the right to be such a condescending... poster.

I'll pray for you.
 
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