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Thread: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    Great display of ignorance! Keep up the great work!
    He was a an Imperialist who spread Islam through the sword from central Asia to North Africa as head of the Rashidun Caliphate. Imperialist expansionism at its finest.

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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    He was a an Imperialist who spread Islam through the sword from central Asia to North Africa as head of the Rashidun Caliphate. Imperialist expansionism at its finest.
    Nice try, but the Rashidun Caliphate didn't even start until after Muhammad's death.

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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    Nice try, but the Rashidun Caliphate didn't even start until after Muhammad's death.
    And we were discussing Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib.

    Now if you want to discuss Mohammad let's. First of all there is no evidence that Mohammad is anything but a mythical character, but if the Muslim sources regarding him are true and he actually existed (which I doubt) then they depict him as perpetrating genocide and ethnic cleansing against the Jewish Banu tribes of the Arabian Penninsula.

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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    I have a deal for you "conservatives" out there who wanna subvert the constitution.

    If you break private property laws and the constitution to stop the mosque from being built...

    Will you let the gays marry?

    A fair trade I think...
    Why would I be opposed to gays marrying? They should have the same right to be miserable as us breeders.

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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Now if you want to discuss Mohammad let's. First of all there is no evidence that Mohammad is anything but a mythical character, but if the Muslim sources regarding him are true and he actually existed (which I doubt) then they depict him as perpetrating genocide and ethnic cleansing against the Jewish Banu tribes of the Arabian Penninsula.
    You need to be more careful with your words, for someone who is so quick to insult others for mistakes you are remarkably careless in your reasoning. You say that there is "no evidence" that Muhammad existed, but there is.

    There is plenty of evidence supporting the existence of Muhammad, not least of which is the Qur'an and the Hadith. You might not find this particularly persuasive but it is evidence nevertheless, and no amount of histrionics from you will change that fact.

    Furthermore you equivocate between "evidence" and "non-Muslim evidence" as if the only source that constitutes actual evidence can come from a non-Muslim source. This is incorrect. A non-Muslim source might be stronger evidence, but this does not detract from the fact that Muslim sources very much remain a category of evidence (please let me know if I'm going too fast for you here).

    Indeed, despite your flailing denials of Bishop Sebeos, you cannot contradict the fact that contemporaneous, non-Muslim evidence for the historicity of Muhammad does exist. "Evidence" and "evidence that convinces you" are two different things. You would do well to keep them straight.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 08-14-10 at 12:41 PM.

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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    You need to be more careful with your words, for someone who is so quick to insult others for mistakes you are remarkably careless in your reasoning. You say that there is "no evidence" that Muhammad (this is the proper spelling, btw) existed, but there is.
    Proper according to whom? I've seen it both ways.

    There is plenty of evidence supporting the existence of Muhammad, not least of which is the Qur'an and the Hadith. You might not find this particularly persuasive but it is evidence nevertheless, and no amount of histrionics from you will change that fact.
    O.K. there is no credible evidence. There is nothing that separates the character of Mohammad from the character of Achilles, or various other mythical characters. In other words if he wasn't claimed as the prophet for a billion people we wouldn't even be discussing this. There is no evidence which should take Mohammad out of the realm of mythical into the historical.

    Furthermore you equivocate between "evidence" and "non-Muslim evidence" as if the only source that constitutes actual evidence can come from a non-Muslim source. This is incorrect. A non-Muslim source might be stronger evidence, but this does not detract from the fact that Muslim sources very much remain a category of evidence (please let me know if I'm going to fast for you here).
    I will not accept Greek sources for the existence of Achilles nor will I accept Muslim sources for the existence of Mohammad, there is nothing that leads me to believe that Mohammad is anything more than a mythical rather than a historical character.

    Indeed, despite your flailing denials of Bishop Sebeos, you cannot contradict that fact that contemporaneous, non-Muslim evidence for the historicity of Muhammad does exist. "Evidence" and "evidence that convinces you" are two different things. You would do well to keep them straight.
    Sebeos = fail.

    Sebeos was clearly recounting the tales he heard from the Muslims after they conquered Armenia during the Imperialist Expanisionism of the Rashidun Caliphate, he repeated these stories 3 decades after Mohammads supposed death, and his stories match the Muslim narrative to the letter. He was neither a contemporary or primary source.

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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Proper according to whom? I've seen it both ways.
    My mistake, I edited that. Both are acceptable, but I believe the spelling with the "u" appears to be favored. The "o" spelling seems archaic to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    O.K. there is no credible evidence. There is nothing that separates the character of Mohammad from the character of Achilles, or various other mythical characters. In other words if he wasn't claimed as the prophet for a billion people we wouldn't even be discussing this. There is no evidence which should take Mohammad out of the realm of mythical into the historical.
    The bolded line is non sequitur. You are correct that the evidence for Muhammad's existence is similar to that of Achilles. But there is likewise evidence of a historical Achilles, you said so yourself. Whether your find the evidence compelling is not the issue, it is merely the fact that evidence exists. The Iliad is evidence for the existence of a historical Achilles. You must be more rigorous in your understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    I will not accept Greek sources for the existence of Achilles nor will I accept Muslim sources for the existence of Mohammad, there is nothing that leads me to believe that Mohammad is anything more than a mythical rather than a historical character.
    Good for you, but once again, that isn't the issue.

    And what's with all the "Sebeos = fail" nonsense? I realize you fancy yourself to be some sort of gamer-intellectual, but honestly it'd be a lot easier to take you seriously if you stop writing like a child.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 08-14-10 at 01:44 PM.

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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    The bolded line is non sequitur. You are correct that the evidence for Muhammad's existence is similar to that of Achilles. But there is likewise evidence of a historical Achilles, you said so yourself. Whether your find the evidence compelling is not the issue, it is merely the fact that evidence exists. The Iliad is evidence for the existence of a historical Achilles. You must be more rigorous in your understanding.
    Evidence has to be compelling when we make the distincition between mythical and historical figures. That is why I say there is no evidence which would take Mohammad from the realm of mythical to historical, IE because the evidence is simply not credible enough for us to make that leap.

    And what's with all the "Sebeos = fail" nonsense? I realize you fancy yourself to be some sort of gamer-intellectual, but honestly it'd be a lot easier to take you seriously if you stop writing like a child.
    pWn the n00b

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