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Thread: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    At its root, its source documents, tradition, literature, commands, scriptures, Islam is an evangelistic religion. Meaning, it has a command to expand with the eventual goal that everyone is Muslim. If this was confined to peaceful preaching and conversion only by the willing, with tolerance for everyone else, there wouldn't be a ****ing problem. But virtually all of its expansion has been by violent conquest and eradication or repression of all other beliefs.
    That makes it very little different than Christianity.

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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Let me ask you this....

    If there is a "peaceful" interpretation, how do we make it not just the majority opinion, but have it enforced internally by Muslim nations?
    There's no real way WE can make it happen. The portion of the world where the majority of the religion is found is years and years behind other portions of the world in advancement and while modern technology is pushing that advancement ahead faster its still going to take time. Christianity, for all the good it does now, unquestionably had a time where it had numerous black eyes as well. Western society through enlightened thinkers, good economies, and various world events has had a chance to grow.

    For example, look at the difference between the majority of 2nd or greater generation muslims in America and compare them to Muslims in say Syria. There is not a person on this board that can tell me with a straight face that when you take a random 100 people from both those areas that they're views on the Muslims faith, their feelings towards America and the West, their views on human rights and womens rights, and other such things are going to be similar between the majority of both groups. Even the "crazy" muslims that pop up in America seem to be people who are not 2nd or greater generation western muslims or fresh converts who likely are converting for questionable reasons. This generally tells me that this is much less to do with the religion itself and much more to do with the society and culture that said religion is primarily being bred in with regards to the middle east and the pockets of various countries where 1st generation immigrants form a significantly large centralized and rather isolated community.

    Time is going to be needed, further encroachment of western values and ideals into the middle east is needed (look at the Muslim youth in Iran for instance), more and more 2nd/3rd/4th generation muslims coming into the fold and rising into important positions within the faith...these things will help to continue to push the moderation.

    However, there's little we can do to force or "make" these changes happen other than refrain from ostracizing those that actually ARE moderate and ARE pushing for a modernization and moderation of the religion by decrying all within their faith as evil, wrong, and worthy of illegalization.

    We have pushed democratically structured governments across the world as the system of government that gives the most freedom and protects the rights of the individual. But that creates a problem in the ME. The people are tribal. Power and control is concentrated in the heads of the families and the tribes. Since these positions are not voted on and arrived at democratically, voting for a candidate or a law undermines the traditional power structure. We found that out. Unless you destroy the culture and the tribal structure, you can't turn them into working democracies.
    They are hardly the first people to have a structure set up where families rule and individuals rule and the people serve. The west had this as well. In general however when you GIVE people democracy rather than aid the people actually actively working towards freedom then you're not going to have the same success because such freedom is not earned nor struggled for and thus is immediately taken for a granted.

    This is much like a kid in college. In general those that work, taking summer and night jobs, applying for scholarships, saving money while bypassing luxuries are going to be more likely to actually concentrate in class and strive to do well in college even if their normal nature would push them to want to party and good off. Its this way because they actually exerted their own effort to get what they wanted and as such really appreciate what they're getting and are even more vested in not screwing it up. Meanwhile, those that simply have all their college paid for are far more likely to skip classes, goof off, and not do as well if not get kicked out.

    Is this the case for every person every time? Absolutely not, there's exceptions...perhaps many exceptions...to both those. But in a general sense, the first group of people are more likely to do better in the long run with regards to their effort put into college then the second group.

    Its that first group too that can benefit at times that, as they get close but aren't quite there, can be given a small boost...like a few thousand dollar gift...as acknowledgement at the end of their hard work and HELPING them get what THEY worked for rather than GIVING them what you feel like they should simply have.

    This is one of my issues with the Obama administration and as you ask me what we can do, I think one of the things we COULD'VE done was give more vocal, diplomatic, and underground support to the Green movement in Iran recently. There you had youths, much more westernized youths, that in general were more into equal human rights then their previous generation (even if they weren't perfect with it, they were an improvement) that were actively making that struggle, working at it themselves. They were that kid that was working summer and night jobs, putting in for tuition, and in the end was still a few thousand short. They were the kind that just needed that little extra boost, and who knows what heights they could've reached........

    Instead they were left to flounder. Now hopefully, like the college analogy, they take the time to work a bit more, save up a bit more, and then the next year when its time to apply they go at it again. But their chance could also have passed by already, and that's a huge failure on the part of the west.

    Ultimately, there's nothing we can do to FORCE or MAKE Islam become more modernized and more moderated...but we can help by not ostracizing those that are seeking to do that and dealing with the religion realistically and addressing the culture and societal issues that allow people to USE the religion for ill purposes...as Christianity was USED to murder "witches" and "heritics" and destroy scientific evidence before...rather than simply focusing all the hatred on the "wrongness" of the religion in and of itself.

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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Zyphlin is no conservative that much is painfully clear.
    Clearly, because all of the real conservatives (tm) believe that the protections in the bill of rights should be overruled because Islam is EEEVIILLLLL.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 08-10-10 at 08:38 PM.

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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    This is one of my issues with the Obama administration and as you ask me what we can do, I think one of the things we COULD'VE done was give more vocal, diplomatic, and underground support to the Green movement in Iran recently. There you had youths, much more westernized youths, that in general were more into equal human rights then their previous generation (even if they weren't perfect with it, they were an improvement) that were actively making that struggle, working at it themselves. They were that kid that was working summer and night jobs, putting in for tuition, and in the end was still a few thousand short. They were the kind that just needed that little extra boost, and who knows what heights they could've reached........

    Instead they were left to flounder.

    Ultimately, there's nothing we can do to FORCE or MAKE Islam become more modernized and more moderated...but we can help by not ostracizing those that are seeking to do that and dealing with the religion realistically and addressing the culture and societal issues that allow people to USE the religion for ill purposes...as Christianity was USED to murder "witches" and "heritics" and destroy scientific evidence before...rather than simply focusing all the hatred on the "wrongness" of the religion in and of itself.
    Excellent post.

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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Clearly, because all of the real conservatives (tm) believe that the protections in the bill of rights should be overruled because Islam is EEEVIILLLLL.
    tell it to 50% of the dems in new york

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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    tell it to 50% of the dems in new york
    Off our clomipramine again?

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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Anyways, since most of you decided to ignore my point about porno and/or brush it off as unimportant, I would just like to comment that Zyphlin and ric both represent the great divide you're seeing in conservative politics, that divide being "thinkers" and "crazies".
    "We’re going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying ten percent of his salary, and that’s crazy." -Reagan

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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Off our clomipramine again?
    ad hominems---LOL!

    how immoderate

    50% of new york dems, says marist TODAY, want to rip the bill of rights

    8/10: Bloomberg Approval Rating Below 50% for First Time in Five Years : Home of the Marist Poll: Pebbles and Pundits

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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Gov. Paterson Offers Help Moving Ground Zero Mosque « CBS New York- News, Sports, Weather, Traffic and the Best of NY

    Paterson, a Democrat, said that he doesn’t oppose the project as planned but indicated that he understands where opponents are coming from. He said he was willing to intervene to seek other suitable state property if the developers agreed.

    “I think it’s rather clear that building a center there meets all the requirements, but it does seem to ignite an immense amount of anxiety among the citizens of New York and people everywhere, and I think not without cause,” Paterson said in a news conference in Manhattan.

    “I am very sensitive to the desire of those who are adamant against it to see something else worked out,” Paterson said.
    finally, a message of maturity and moderation

    well, it is just a matter of time

    you don't mess with the majority of manhattan
    Last edited by The Prof; 08-10-10 at 08:58 PM.

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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Maybe he would like to move it to....New Jersey!
    "We’re going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying ten percent of his salary, and that’s crazy." -Reagan

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