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Thread: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

  1. #501
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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Seriously, I'll be the first to admit and acknowledge and apologize or own up to instances where my hypocrisy is legitimately displayed and someone can show it as such. However when people go for backassward attempts that are obviously bogus in attempts to smear me and do so in such a juvenile and amateurish way its delightfully fun to show them how pathetic their attempt was and how easy it is to poke holes in their dishonest arguments.

    J-mac is sending mixed messages, saying he has no problems with legally allowing people to build...and then saying it'd be different with regards to near 9/11. I simply want to know what his actual stance is in regards to whether or not the government should be holding it up or prohibiting it.

    I thank him for the post to moderate muslims and they for the most part are mirroring my sentiments towards the thing. That said I do find it ironic he's siting the words of the very people he wants essentially barred from the U.S. by making Islam Illegal.
    Let me ask you this....

    If there is a "peaceful" interpretation, how do we make it not just the majority opinion, but have it enforced internally by Muslim nations? We have pushed democratically structured governments across the world as the system of government that gives the most freedom and protects the rights of the individual. But that creates a problem in the ME. The people are tribal. Power and control is concentrated in the heads of the families and the tribes. Since these positions are not voted on and arrived at democratically, voting for a candidate or a law undermines the traditional power structure. We found that out. Unless you destroy the culture and the tribal structure, you can't turn them into working democracies.

  2. #502
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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Zyphlin is no conservative that much is painfully clear. libertarian possibly.
    .
    Yeah, its true. Very hard to diagnose at the beginning and you probably will not hear too much about this unless you dig really hard. Just like, there are alot of diseases that will mask their true symptoms until it to late and the damage has been done.

  3. #503
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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Moderator's Warning:
    Ground zero mosque wins key voteLet's discuss the topic and not the members.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



  4. #504
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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Thanks, so can any of you socially conservative folks tell me why you don't object to my previous post?
    "We’re going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying ten percent of his salary, and that’s crazy." -Reagan

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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWOlin View Post
    Thanks, so can any of you socially conservative folks tell me why you don't object to my previous post?
    What previous post?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  6. #506
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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWOlin View Post
    I dunno, nobody cares about the strip club or porno stores around Ground Zero I guess they probably wouldn't mind a gay bar?

    New York Dolls - Google Maps

    Btw it's good to know that conservative pundits are high fiving in their circle jerk over that too.
    Thats because the busy body bible thumpers and the feminist left have pretty much lost the porn fight back in the 90s. Fighting the porn industry doesnt get people riled up as it used to.
    Last edited by Cold Highway; 08-10-10 at 08:18 PM.
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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    You can read my response elsewhere so this thread is not diverted by your ad hominems, Tex.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 08-10-10 at 08:00 PM.

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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    I used to think of Zyphlin as a remarkably level-headed poster. Not sure if he's having an off week or if I was simply mistaken.
    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    He gets pissed off by short-sighted fascists who want to trample on the bill of rights because of their own irrational phobias.

    I have to admit, so do I.
    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    I hadn't pegged him as the type who got "pissed off" - I guess I just haven't been reading the "more excitable" threads.
    Catz is half right. I get more aggressive in my posting style when I'm "pissed". However, she's incorrect in what gets me in such a stance.

    I dislike people wanting to trample on the bill of rights, but it doesn't "piss me off". People disagree on political issues. This is the very nature and essence of politics. I have no issues with people holding a different view then me; though I will tend to meet them with tactics similar to those they decide to employ first as long as they're within the rules. (strangely enough, this is my similar stance when it comes to war and methods in which to conduct it)

    For example, looking at the vast majority of my posts in the recent gay marriage thread with Hicup. Hicup is standing on the exact opposite side of me but we have probably a good 10 to 20 posts back and forth that were civil and respectful while also heated with us both acknowledging the legitimacy in the others feelings on the matter even if we didn't agree with the legitimacy of their actual argument.

    No, what "pisses me off" is blatant, repeated, gross dishonesty cached as "debate" that has no point other to enflame or deflect, attempting to spin an debate into an emotional battle rather than an actual discussion. Take for example instead, since he's chosen to peek his head in and comment about me in this thread, Texmaster and mine interaction in the gay marriage thread. Unlike this thread with J-Mac and I, Tex and I were DIRECTLY responding to each other for numerous pages and numerous posts. Additionally, even when not directly responding to me, Tex was active in the thread while I was active which again is unlike much of the time with me and J-Mac in this thread. Despite that Texmaster repeatedly and continually blatantly ignored my argument or purposefully twisted it to be the opposite of what I specifically stated. To the point that I specifically, in clear plain english, stated my position being about gender and not sexuality...and in the very next post he dedicated his entire post responding to me on the basis that I was speaking about "sexuality". That kind of blatant dishonesty definitely does get me going in a more aggressive style of posting.

    Similarly, Prof's hatchet job attempt at me in this thread does similar. He specifically took both J-Mac's words and my words, chopped them up, and presented them out of context. He dishonestly then attempted to take a snippet from a singular post that was one of dozens in a particular thread and against proceeded to present THAT out of context. He did all this to imply a scenario where the two situations correlated despite the fact that I was not directly involved with J-Mac for half a dozen posts, was not active in the thread through dozens and dozens of posts of him stating his position, he did not clearly and simply state forth his position without any confusion, and unlike tex in the thread Prof was referencing I flat out from the very start illustrated that I may be wrong in my understanding of what he was stating, stated if I was wrong to tell me and I'd apologize, and stated my argument solely in the frame that IF my understanding is correct then this was my thoughts.

    People actually having a debate does not piss me off or cause me to hold onto a more aggressive posting style. People refusing to actually debate, refusing to actually read posts, dishonestly misrepresenting posts, dishonestly making accusations and attacks, those things do.

    J-Mac made suggestions regarding ignoring constitutional protections by suggesting the constitution "isn't a suicide pact" implying he possibly thought it was okay to violate the constitution at times such as in this case. J-Mac is the one that made his post about "building it wherever you want" and then caused confusion by including "But not on ground zero". He is the one that made comments about how it should not go forward without clarifying if he meant literally in a legal stance or simply in his opinion hypothetically. J-Mac is the one that suggested islam isn't a religion implying it has no constitutional protection under the 1st amendment.

    Now with that said, let me show in this post (and in the next to come) the sincere difference between me and others and why Prof's statements are hollow and dishonest.

    I made a mistake in the midst of posts and confused J-Mac and Ric's positions, suggesting that J-Mac wished for Islam to be outlawed when in reality Ric held that belief. Although J-Mac specifically thanked said post, that post included a number of arguments, which is why I asked J-Mac for clarification. He has since given it and I see that he is suggesting that Islam should not be banned and that his stance on this is generally seeming to not be one that suggests the GOVERNMENT from stopping it. As such, as I said in my first post concerning his opinion on whether or not it should be forcefully not allowed, my apologizes for misunderstanding his point based on his comments regarding the constitution and it not being a suicide pact.

  9. #509
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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Yep, it's a riddle....I'll try and be as clear as I can here so that from this point on there should be NO ambiguity about where I stand.
    Thanks, its always helpful.

    On the Mosque site, I think that is is a direct affront to those victims families, and everyone in America to not only build a shrine there, but to name it as they originally wanted to, Cordoba House. Those who know their history will immediately see why.
    I agree.

    Do I have a distrust of Muslims? Yes, I don't think it is possible to have witnessed the past 10 years, and further, and not. Call it bias, call it what ever you want. it is what it is.
    While I question just how far your distrust goes into the unreasonable realm, I don't necessarily think distrust in and of itself is unreasonable.

    Do I want to "outlaw" Islam in America? No. I don't think that would do any good, and would only feed into increased isolationism.
    Good, I'm glad that's not the part of ric's post which you thanked that you agreed with.

    Do I think that Islam is a force to be taken at face value when moderates speak? No. It is a proven fact that dishonesty in the furtherance of this cause to convert all the world is a tenant of the religion.
    Disagree here in your universal application of this, but in a general sense I do think there's merit in what you're saying.

    I think we must be awfully careful in how we approach this conflict of Islam v. Western Culture, it is dangerous, and will thrive of pitting us against each other. If the majority of Muslims are a peaceful group wishing only to worship as they will, and denounce terror around the world vocally and unhesitatingly then more power to them, but we shouldn't have to prompt that from them if they are truly for peace.
    I honestly think that the majority of Muslims are like the majority of Americans, they don't give a **** about something until its affecting them. Point in case, all the attoricies that so many Republicans point to now were pretty much ignored by them 15 years ago and barely spoken about. It wasn't until it became a clear and present threat to this country that they gave a damn. I'm sorry if I don't hold the muslim community to some greatly higher standard than I hold the American public. People, all people, by nature are generally self interested.

    Now J-mac, despite your claims of wanting to clear up ambiguity you failed to address one singular point and speak definitively on it. So I shall ask again, straight up, for an answer so there is no confusion.

    Do you think the federal, state, or city government should impose its power on these people and deny them the ability to build their building on the land that they purchased? Yes or no?

  10. #510
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    Re: Ground zero mosque wins key vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Your ultra conservatism taints your perceptions on these issues. After all, you consider ZYPHLIN a liberal, as well.
    It IS a fight. It is a fight for the direction the country will go, and it means life or death for our economy and our very way of life, among other things. He has seen the decay and destruction liberal stupidity has brought to this country and, he is committed to the core to stop it at every turn. He will oppose it at every opportunity. Maybe you don't think it's a fight, but he sure as hell does as well as many others on these boards....

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