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Thread: US combat mission in Iraq to end on schedule Aug 31: Obama

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    Re: US combat mission in Iraq to end on schedule Aug 31: Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    SO. Let me get this straight.

    This is for SOME conservatives in this thread, not all.

    When Obama sends extra troops to afghanistan, he's "elongating the war"

    When Obama decides it's time to leave he's "retreating".

    Jesus christ tough crowd.

    Conservatism is all about self reliance right?

    So let me get THIS straight.

    When your helping YOUR OWN PEOPLE financially it's socialism.

    When your helping a foreign people with the blood and money of your people its victory?

    WTF?
    OR...you COULD have said...this is for the ONE conservative that ive seen that used the word retreat...not 'some' conservatives.

    True enough...there are 'some' republicans that will be opposed to ANYTHING The One does...but that would describe a WHOLE LOT of democrats that kneejerk responded to any and everything that Bush did...correct? I mean...just in the name of integrity and honesty...and Im curious...were you as incredulous then as now?

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    Re: US combat mission in Iraq to end on schedule Aug 31: Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    SSo let me get THIS straight.

    When your helping YOUR OWN PEOPLE financially it's socialism.

    When your helping a foreign people with the blood and money of your people its victory?

    WTF?
    Oh...and I missed that part...

    No...we have been "helping our own people" since the country began...usually privately and usually that is meant to be a hand UP. No...what the government does is castrate its crippled and dependent pets with its handout programs. Doesnt help...it hinders growth and progress. Thats 'socialism'.

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    Re: US combat mission in Iraq to end on schedule Aug 31: Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    I always prefer other countries fend for themselves and, if we choose a side in a conflict, for us to provide non-military aid and support.
    I agree when it is a stable, democratic country, or a stable autocratic country that is providing for out national security. When it is an unstable country, I don't agree, especially if we were party to it being unstable.

    However - the Iraqi people, well, I truly just don't believe they can keep a firm hand on their new country. They're too rooted in their old ways and the filth that we tried to get rid of isn't 100% gone, either (it never will be - it's impossible).
    This seems likely if we completely disengage. Luckily, it looks as if Obama is putting in the experienced people, from Bush's days, to guide the Iraqis to a reconciliation and political agreement. There is no reason to keep large numbers of our combat troops in theater since the Iraqis largely handle their own security. Counterterrorism missions are another story, but we are keeping troops there for that. The crux is a political agreement.

    So, while it would be great if they could keep it together and head in this new direction - I believe they won't be able to manage it.
    Don't you think you are seriously jumping the gun with this conclusion? The Iraqis buy into democracy. Look at their turnouts. The political class needs to come to an arrangement and some violence is to be expected. That is a long way from a restart on the civil war.

    And after spending away so much of our time, lives and money on the effort - it will be painful to watch it come apart before it's finished, you know . . . but that's what we'll be doing over the next decade or so.
    Exactly why we must stay engaged. Otherwise, the surrounding nations are going to rip it apart.

    that's what happens when you try to rebuild a country who doesn't 100% want it - and who, in the past, has proven incapable of fending for their selves.
    This is a faulty conclusion. A high percentage want it. In the past they were an autocratic dictatorship and the individual opinions of the electorate were not heard. Now they are as evidenced by the split Shiite vote and the heavy Sunni vote for Iraqiyyah that launched them to the largest representation. Now we observe fundamental power sharing negotiations between Shiites and Sunnis. It will take time.

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    Re: US combat mission in Iraq to end on schedule Aug 31: Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    SO. Let me get this straight.

    This is for SOME conservatives in this thread, not all.

    When Obama sends extra troops to afghanistan, he's "elongating the war"
    This is appropriate. The only problem was his announcing a end date.

    When Obama decides it's time to leave he's "retreating".
    Bull****, the troops are sitting on their ass doing nothing. Iraqis have security. We don't need these troops in Iraq. We have plenty for 1) contingency, 2) counterterrorism, 3) protective security, 4) economic development assistance. Obama is doing the right thing.

    Jesus christ tough crowd.

    Conservatism is all about self reliance right?

    So let me get THIS straight.

    When your helping YOUR OWN PEOPLE financially it's socialism.

    When your helping a foreign people with the blood and money of your people its victory?
    It is a question of degree. We don't have unrest due to high unemployment (50%++) so no need to develop infrastructure to hire those people. Do we pay $30,000 salaries for people to do nothing? Free healthcare, education, police/fire/EMT services. Where does it end? We have to help provide jobs in Iraq to stabilize the country. BIG DIFFERENCE.

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    Re: US combat mission in Iraq to end on schedule Aug 31: Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    But it will be different this time, Auntie!
    That's what she said!
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
    Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow

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    Re: US combat mission in Iraq to end on schedule Aug 31: Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    I always prefer other countries fend for themselves and, if we choose a side in a conflict, for us to provide non-military aid and support.
    Non-interventionist and non-state building policies are the best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    However - the Iraqi people, well, I truly just don't believe they can keep a firm hand on their new country. They're too rooted in their old ways and the filth that we tried to get rid of isn't 100% gone, either (it never will be - it's impossible).
    That's kinda condescending, don't you think? It's their country and their government, who are you to tell them what they have to have? Government is given legitimacy through the consent of the governed. We are not governed by the Iraqi government, thus we have no proper say in its construction and form. It's up to them, it's their decision and if they take something we don't like; well tough. It's not our call. If the government is hostile towards us, fine we'll deal with it then depending on how that hostility works out. But to say that they aren't resolved enough or smart enough to construct their own government, so we have to do it....I don't think that's our job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    So, while it would be great if they could keep it together and head in this new direction - I believe they won't be able to manage it.
    That's their problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    And after spending away so much of our time, lives and money on the effort - it will be painful to watch it come apart before it's finished, you know . . . but that's what we'll be doing over the next decade or so.
    So instead of calling it quits and acknowledging that this was something we never should have done, because we've spent so much time, lives and money on the effort we should continue spending time, lives, and money on the effort till it's "done". Which has not be well defined nor has there been sufficient plans to get us there. I think maybe that's insane.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    that's what happens when you try to rebuild a country who doesn't 100% want it - and who, in the past, has proven incapable of fending for their selves.
    And that's why we shouldn't be doing it. Not our cause, not our problem, not worth our lives. Our government was not empowered to nation build. And perhaps this little excursion should show us why.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: US combat mission in Iraq to end on schedule Aug 31: Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    I always prefer other countries fend for themselves and, if we choose a side in a conflict, for us to provide non-military aid and support.

    However - the Iraqi people, well, I truly just don't believe they can keep a firm hand on their new country. They're too rooted in their old ways and the filth that we tried to get rid of isn't 100% gone, either (it never will be - it's impossible).

    So, while it would be great if they could keep it together and head in this new direction - I believe they won't be able to manage it.

    And after spending away so much of our time, lives and money on the effort - it will be painful to watch it come apart before it's finished, you know . . . but that's what we'll be doing over the next decade or so.

    that's what happens when you try to rebuild a country who doesn't 100% want it - and who, in the past, has proven incapable of fending for their selves.
    They're trying to fend for themselves, but the first thing that means is to get rid of outside interference.

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    Re: US combat mission in Iraq to end on schedule Aug 31: Obama

    Really, imo we should just leave the entire area and let them go at eachother. Those people there do not like us. They could give two ****s about any troops there. One minute they will smile right at you while you hand them some food, clothes, etc the next minute they sell you out to an insurgent.
    "We’re going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying ten percent of his salary, and that’s crazy." -Reagan

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    Re: US combat mission in Iraq to end on schedule Aug 31: Obama

    Basing strategy off of a stubborn desire to view the situation as if it never happened or view it that we should only act based on what we should've done at the beginning regardless of the current situation is incredibly idiotic in my mind.

    Regardless of whether or not you think we should've been there in the first place, regardless of whether or not you think we should be nation building or not, one must look at the situation as it actually is NOW in reality.

    In reality, we have spent 7 years there.

    In reality, we have lost the lives of hundreds of Americans.

    In reality, we've had thousands of Americans injured.

    In reality, we've spent untold amounts of money, much of which we didn't have, on this at this point.

    In reality, we have begun and are in the midst of nation building. Building that is realistically argued as being unfinished.

    These are unquestionable truths. The following are my opinion but I think reasonable ones to suggest.

    In reality, what happens in other areas of the world affects us due to the international nature of much of our economy, our dependence on foriegn goods and resources, and our interaction with allies.

    In reality, Iraq does provide us with potential strategic advantages if as nothing else a trade partner if it remains a democratic society.

    Based on all this we need to weigh the legitimate pro's and con's regarding what we should be doing in relation to Iraq. What would and outright immediete pull out do to the country, to the infastructure we've already invested so much in, to the democracy we spent lives trying to help create, to the safety and security of the middle east, to the cost of oil and thus general goods and services, to our own national security, and onward. To determine whether or not acting simply based on principle of what we SHOULD have done 7 years ago is worth the risk and damage doing so now, with a disregard for the situation as it is realistically TODAY, could and would cause. To determine whether or not at this point it is actually more beneficial to the United States and the United States people to invest a bit more (and when it comes to 7 years of this, another 1 to 2 years is a bit) to actually have things occur with regards to Iraq that gives us some sort of positive return for our investment or if its impossible or far too costly (IE another 7 or 8 years) to get to a point where such a return is possible.

    To me, all of that is far, far, more important and would be far more persuasive then screaming "non-interventionism" and "we shouldn't have gone in the first place" and "no nation building" and other empty platitudes that ignore reality, don't deal with the situation as it is currently, and are nothing but principle based arguments founded in a hypothetical bubble within a complete vacuum scenario.

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    Re: US combat mission in Iraq to end on schedule Aug 31: Obama

    But flip the coin - what about their reality? The Iraqis - those who aren't permitted into their political arena and can't fend for their selves?

    These people have endured a lot of **** and will only continue to endure more - all because of where they live.

    It's just ****ty for everyone - regardless of what goes on.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
    Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow

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