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Thread: US combat mission in Iraq to end on schedule Aug 31: Obama

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    Re: US combat mission in Iraq to end on schedule Aug 31: Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    I personally would have preferred to see the 'peace' managed radically differently. I think we should have given BOTH Afghanistan and Iraq a 3 year timetable.

    Taht being said...the war in Afghanistan, like the war in iraq, was over in a rapid hurry. They cant have been defined in any other way than as striking successes. The problem was not the war. Its what happened AFTER the war. We listened to everyone and decided to turn over the peace keeping mission to UN control.
    Frankly, Vance, and I suspect that you and I agree on this one, turning over peacekeeping operations was an afterthought. I don't believe that the bush administration HAD an exit plan.

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    Re: US combat mission in Iraq to end on schedule Aug 31: Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Most of us use the term casualties to refer to those LOST in combat, not injuries. Based upon that definition of the term, how many casualties have we had in Iraq?

    See, I saw what you did there. You used the term casualty to inflate the numbers for Desert Storm.

    Using the same standards for the Iraq War, our casualty figure becomes 34,469.

    Still want to play this game?

    See, you relied upon no one questioning your figure. 1,200 doesn't sound that bad when compared against 4,200 over 8 years.

    But the comparison isn't between 1,200 and 4,200. It's between 145 and 1,200, or between 1,200 and 34,000.

    Nice try though.
    I didn't inflate anything. Those two guys in A 1/8 Cav that got killed when their Bradley rolled over in a ditch, while we were attacking a Republican Gaurd unit? Yeah, their deaths count, too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US combat mission in Iraq to end on schedule Aug 31: Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I didn't inflate anything. Those two guys in A 1/8 Cav that got killed when their Bradley rolled over in a ditch, while we were attacking a Republican Gaurd unit? Yeah, their deaths count, too.
    Combat accidents in Iraq only totalled 148. That adds up to 253 deaths, so you're off by about 950. Are you counting being wounded as a casualty?

    I think you heard the figure somewhere and were too sloppy to look it up yourself until I challenged it.

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    Re: US combat mission in Iraq to end on schedule Aug 31: Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Combat accidents in Iraq only totalled 148. That adds up to 253 deaths, so you're off by about 950. Are you counting being wounded as a casualty?

    I think you heard the figure somewhere and were too sloppy to look it up yourself until I challenged it.
    Being wounded, by your own definition, is considered a casualty. The guys that just got ****ed up and not killed, they count.

    I think you heard the figure somewhere and were too sloppy to look it up yourself until I challenged it.
    Of course you think that. Nothing new coming from you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US combat mission in Iraq to end on schedule Aug 31: Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    For a long time, America wasn't the world's police force. Then, when things had grown so out of control, that we were forced to get involved, we wound up with a world war that killed a half million Americans. Add up all the combat casualties since WW2 and it's less than half the number of soldiers WIA, KIA ans MIA during WW2.
    Well WW 2 was the last real war we won, it was also the last officially declared war (i.e. Constitutional) we had. I'd hope that we wouldn't suffer the number of casualties we have in that war. For God's sake, it was an actual World War. Against an actual, competent, and dangerous enemy. The terrorists have nothing on Nazi Germany, or Communist Russia for that matter. But the Iraq war is the longest we've had. If we can't solve the problem in the time we've already invested, then we can't solve this problem. It's not even our problem to solve. We have no legitimate purpose in Iraq.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: US combat mission in Iraq to end on schedule Aug 31: Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well WW 2 was the last real war we won, it was also the last officially declared war (i.e. Constitutional) we had. I'd hope that we wouldn't suffer the number of casualties we have in that war. For God's sake, it was an actual World War. Against an actual, competent, and dangerous enemy. The terrorists have nothing on Nazi Germany, or Communist Russia for that matter. But the Iraq war is the longest we've had. If we can't solve the problem in the time we've already invested, then we can't solve this problem. It's not even our problem to solve. We have no legitimate purpose in Iraq.
    Leaving isn't the solution; that is my point. IMO, we'll leave, only to return and start all over again, with a new, long, fresh list of casualties.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US combat mission in Iraq to end on schedule Aug 31: Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Being wounded, by your own definition, is considered a casualty. The guys that just got ****ed up and not killed, they count.

    Of course you think that. Nothing new coming from you.
    Just make sure you use the 34,482 figure when referring to Iraq war casualties in the future, and we're straight.

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    Re: US combat mission in Iraq to end on schedule Aug 31: Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Leaving isn't the solution; that is my point. IMO, we'll leave, only to return and start all over again, with a new, long, fresh list of casualties.
    No, the solution would have been to bomb the **** out of them, again, from a distance, and never actually invade. We knew where to bomb, it was the places that Hussein wasn't allowing the weapons inspectors to inspect, and his palaces. THE END.

    Jesus Christ. This war is not winnable, because it isn't a militarily feasible objective.

    How would you define "winning" in this situation, Apdst? PLease give me the conditions that would need to be met in order to "win."
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 08-03-10 at 02:55 PM.

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    Re: US combat mission in Iraq to end on schedule Aug 31: Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustachio View Post
    This is great news... well, it's only news because we're so used to being lied to by politicians. If this all goes according to what we're told, I think people on both sides of the aisle should give Obama a lot of credit for being open and honest with the American people regarding the war in Iraq. The cost in lives and taxpayer dollars from this war is unforgivable and our President's actions are a good reminder of why I'm happy that McCain wasn't elected. I have a few friends that I can't wait to see come home permanently. I have a few friends in Afghanistan, too... that's a different story.
    Hans Blix answers why to your claim in bold is false, and David Kay had more.
    How quickly we forget.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    I think your should read what Hans Blix reported to the UN.
    I would say, by your definition, Blix was fear mongering. He paints a bleak, dangerous picture.

    He had the worst of WMD, as Blix noted, and they couldn't account for it, and he was uncooperative.

    What do you do as a President sworn to defend against enemies foreign and domestic, with an obviously gleeful band of terrorists spread about the world like cancer?

    You "Connect the Dots"... remember those words?

    Now tell me, after reading the following. You have just been hit (911), and this kook in Iraq has WMD by all indications. He hates America, and terrorists are dying to get a hold of some WMD goodies.

    Do you issue years of threats, behave like Neville Chamberlain or Bill Clinton, or do you give one last chance, and then act if he doesn't? Hoping it is not too late already.

    CNN.com - Transcript of Blix's remarks - Jan. 27, 2003
    Resolution 687 in 1991, like the subsequent resolutions I shall refer to, required cooperation by Iraq, but such was often withheld or given grudgingly.

    Unlike South Africa, which decided on its own to eliminate its nuclear weapons and welcomed the inspection as a means of creating confidence in its disarmament, Iraq appears not to have come to a genuine acceptance, not even today, of the disarmament which was demanded of it and which it needs to carry out to win the confidence of the world and to live in peace.

    As we know, the twin operation declare and verify, which was prescribed in Resolution 687, too often turned into a game of hide and seek. Rather than just verify in declarations and supporting evidence, the two inspecting organizations found themselves engaged in efforts to map the weapons programs and to search for evidence through inspections, interviews, seminars, inquiries with suppliers and intelligence organizations.

    As a result, the disarmament phase was not completed in the short time expected.

    The Implementation Resolution 687, nevertheless, brought about considerable disarmament results. It has been recognized that more weapons of mass destruction were destroyed under this resolution than were destroyed during the Gulf War. Large quantities of chemical weapons were destroyed under UNSCOM supervision before 1994.

    While Iraq claims, with little evidence, that it destroyed all biological weapons unilaterally in 1991, it is certain that UNSCOM destroyed large biological weapons production facilities in 1996. The large nuclear infrastructure was destroyed and the fissionable material was removed from Iraq by the IAEA.

    One of three important questions before us today is, How much might remain undeclared and intact from before 1991 and possibly thereafter? The second question is, What, if anything, was illegally produced or procured after 1998 when the inspectors left. And the third question is, How it can be prevented that any weapons of mass destruction be produced or procured in the future?

    I'm obliged to note some recent disturbing incidents and harassment. For instance, for some time farfetched allegations have been made publicly that questions posed by inspectors were of an intelligence character.

    Paragraph 9 of Resolution 1441 states that this cooperation shall be "active." It is not enough to open doors. Inspection is not a game of catch as catch can. Rather, as I noted, it is a process of verification for the purpose of creating confidence. It is not built upon the premise of trust. Rather, it is designed to lead to trust, if there is both openness to the inspectors and action to present them with items to destroy or credible evidence about the absence of any such items.

    On 7th of December 2002, Iraq submitted a declaration of some 12,000 pages in response to paragraph 3 of Resolution 1441, and within the time stipulated by the Security Council. In the fields of missiles and biotechnology, the declaration contains a good deal of new material and information covering the period from 1998 and onward.

    Regrettably, the 12,000-page declaration, most of which is a reprint of earlier documents, does not seem to contain any new evidence that will eliminate the questions or reduce their number.

    I shall only give some examples of issues and questions that need to be answered, and I turn first to the sector of chemical weapons.

    The nerve agent VX is one of the most toxic ever developed. Iraq has declared that it only produced VX on a pilot scale, just a few tons, and that the quality was poor and the product unstable.

    Consequently, it was said that the agent was never weaponized.

    Iraq said that the small quantity of [the] agent remaining after the Gulf War was unilaterally destroyed in the summer of 1991.

    UNMOVIC, however, has information that conflicts with this account. There are indications that Iraq had worked on the problem of purity and stabilization and that more had been achieved than has been declared. Indeed, even one of the documents provided by Iraq indicates that the purity of the agent, at least in laboratory production, was higher than declared.

    There are also indications that the agent was weaponized. In addition, there are questions to be answered concerning the fate of the VX precursor chemicals, which Iraq states were lost during bombing in the Gulf War or were unilaterally destroyed by Iraq.

    The discovery of a number of 122 mm chemical rocket warheads in a bunker at the storage depot, 170 kilometers southwest of Baghdad, was much publicized. This was a relatively new bunker, and therefore the rockets must have been moved here in the past few years at a time when Iraq should not have had such munitions. The investigation of these rockets is still proceeding.

    Iraq states that they were overlooked from 1991 from a batch of some 2,000 that were stored there during the Gulf War. This could be the case. They could also be the tip of a submerged iceberg. The discovery of a few rockets does not resolve, but rather points to the issue of several thousand of chemical rockets that are unaccounted for.

    During my recent discussions in Baghdad, Iraq declared that it would make new efforts in this regard and has set up a committee of investigation. Since then, it has reported that it has found four chemical rockets at a storage depot in al-Haji. I might further mention that inspectors have found at another site a laboratory quantity of ... a mustard [gas] precursor.

    I turn to biological weapons. I mention the issue of anthrax to the council on previous occasions, and I come back to it as it is an important one. Iraq has declared that it produced about 8,500 liters of this biological warfare agent, which it states it unilaterally destroyed in the summer of 1991.

    Iraq has provided little evidence for this production and no convincing evidence for its destruction.

    There are strong indications that Iraq produced more anthrax than it declared and that at least some of this was retained over the declared destruction date. It might still exist.

    As I reported to the council on the 19th of December last year, Iraq did not declare a significant quantity, some 650 kilos, of bacterial growth media, which was acknowledged as reported in Iraq's submission to the Amorim panel in February 1999.

    In the letter of 24th of January this year to the president of the Security Council, Iraq's foreign minister stated that, I quote, "All imported quantities of growth media were declared." This is not evidence. I note that the quantity of media involved would suffice to produce, for example, about 5,000 liters of concentrated anthrax.

    Two projects in particular stand out. They are the development of a liquid-fueled missile named Al-Samud II and a solid propellant missile called Al-Fatah. Both missiles have been tested to arrange in excess of the permitted range of 150 kilometers,

    These missiles might well represent prima facie cases of proscribed systems.

    In addition, Iraq has refurbished its missile production infrastructure.

    Whatever missile system these chambers are intended for, they could produce motors for missiles capable of ranges significantly greater than 150 kilometers.

    Iraq has also declared the recent import of chemicals used in propellants, test instrumentation and guidance and control system. These items may well be for proscribed purposes; that is yet to be determined.

    What is clear is that they were illegally brought into Iraq; that is, Iraq or some company in Iraq circumvented the restrictions imposed by various resolutions.

    Presumptions do not solve the problem; evidence and full transparency may help.

    Let me be specific. Information provided by member states tells us about the movement and concealment of missiles and chemical weapons and mobile units for biological weapons production.

    However, Iraq has all the archives of the government and its various departments, institutions and mechanisms. It should have budgetary documents, requests for funds and reports and how they have been used. They should also have letters of credit and bills of lading, reports and production and losses of material.

    The recent inspection find in the private home of a scientist of a box of some 3,000 pages of documents, much of it relating to the lacing enrichment of uranium, support a concern that has long existed that documents might be distributed to the homes of private individuals.

    On our side, we cannot help but think that the case might not be isolated and that such placements of documents is deliberate to make discovery difficult and to seek to shield documents by placing them in private homes.

    Any further sign of the concealment of documents will be serious.
    If only Barack Hussein Obama had been president then. He could have bowed and talked nicely to Saddam Hussein. It would have solved everything. He might have even been able to sweet talk the terrorists. Then again, that hasn't worked with Iran or the terrorists. The Jews or Palestinians... Never mind... had a slurp of Hope & Change Kool-Aid.

    .
    Last edited by zimmer; 08-03-10 at 03:05 PM.
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

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    Re: US combat mission in Iraq to end on schedule Aug 31: Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Just make sure you use the 34,482 figure when referring to Iraq war casualties in the future, and we're straight.
    When I talk about casualties, I will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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