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Israeli airstrike kills senior Hamas rocket maker

Here it comes...:roll:


Yeah, but you know what they say -- One Man's really idiotic platitude is another man's attempt at justifying terrorism through the use of false moral equivalencies.
 
Yeah, but you know what they say -- One Man's really idiotic platitude is another man's attempt at justifying terrorism through the use of false moral equivalencies.


I love it how liberals throw out statements like that, then refuse to back it up or retract when they are blown out of the water. So far bubba has been directly asked at least three times to further back up his ridiculous claim, or should I say flame, once even by a Mod, and very fair person, and nothing..


j-mac
 
Not to mention, for the King David "Massacre" the Irgun gave plenty of warning, and to my understanding every "target" hit by them was a legitimate military or establishment target.


Tim-
 
His sentiment about one man's terrorist being another man's freedom fighter was accurate. Although the founding fathers comparison is not accurate. Hamas and its supporters believe themselves to be freedom fighters.

Of course, Hamas being the types to deliberately kill civilians, I do like the "shoot them in the face" plan. Airstrikes will do.
 
That's a baseless and completely inaccurate assessment.

First, there is totally no comparison between the tactics of the Palestinian terrorists and those of the Continental Army during American Revolution. At no time did those who launched or carried out the American Revolution call for attacks on civilians. If one examines George Washington's Papers, one finds exactly the opposite of what Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have sanctioned and carried out. Furthermore, Washington expressed anger when there were reports of abuses.

For example, here is General George Washington's September 4, 1777 general orders with respect to an incident where some abuses had been reported:

Notwithstanding all the cautions, the earnest requests, and the positive orders of the Commander in Chief, to prevent our own army from plundering our own friends and fellow citizens, yet to his astonishment and grief, fresh complaints are made to him, that so wicked, infamous and cruel a practice is still continued, and that too in circumstances most distressing; where the wretched inhabitants, dreading the enemy's vengeance for their adherence to our cause, have left all, and fled to us for refuge! We complain of the cruelty and barbarity of our enemies; but does it equal ours? They sometimes spare the property of their friends: But some amongst us, beyond expression barbarous, rob even them! Why did we assemble in arms? Was it not, in one capital point, to protect the property of our countrymen? And shall we to our eternal reproach, be the first to pillage and destroy? Will no motives of humanity, of zeal, interest and of honor, restrain the violence of the soldiers, or induce officers to keep so strict a watch over the ill-disposed, as effectually to prevent the execution of their evil designs, and the gratification of their savage inclinations? Or, if these powerful motives are too weak, will they pay no regard to their own safety? How many noble designs have miscarried, how many victories been lost, how many armies ruined, by an indulgence of soldiers in plundering? If officers in the least connive at such practices, the licentiousness of some soldiers will soon be without bounds: In the most critical moments, instead of attending to their duty, they will be scattered abroad, indiscriminately plundering friends and foes; and if no worse consequences ensue, many of them must infallibly fall a prey to the enemy. For these reasons, the Commander in Chief requires, that these orders be distinctly read to all the troops; and that officers of every rank, take particular pains, to convince the men, of the baseness, and fatal tendency of the practices complained of; and that their own safety depends on a contrary conduct, and an exact observance of order and discipline; at the same time the Commander in Chief most solemnly assures all, that he will have no mercy on offenders against these orders; their lives shall pay the forfeit of their crimes. Pity, under such circumstances, would be the height of cruelty.

In addition, here is the relevant portion of General Washington's October 11, 1778 instructions to Bartholomew von Heer:

...you will always remember that you are as carefully to avoid laying innocent free Citizens under any unnecessary restraint and inconvenience, on the one hand, as risking any mischief to the Army from ill-placed lenity on the other.

Source: George Washington's Papers: 1741-1799

In addition, if one compares the Hamas Charter and the U.S. Declaration of Independence, there is no similarity. The former seeks Israel's elimination. The latter sought only independence for the British colonies, not Britain's elimination.

I disagree with you only on one point. There were atrocities committed during the Revolutionary War. However, these acts were committed by the British.
 
I disagree with you only on one point. There were atrocities committed during the Revolutionary War. However, these acts were committed by the British.
I am 100% sure that at least one incident of atrocity (albeit possibly on only a small scale) was committed by the forces of revolution.

Even though I have no info one way or the other, the laws of probability indicate that it had to happen at least once.
 
I disagree with you only on one point. There were atrocities committed during the Revolutionary War. However, these acts were committed by the British.

no, they were committed by both sides
the sons of liberty (samuel adams) was notorious for its treatment of loyalists
Washington countermanded an order his general had issued in new york, thereby allowing the loyalists to continue to be ridden on rails thru the streets
after the waxaws massacre, the patriot militia responded in kind and killed british and loyalist forces who had surrendered
that was true at cowpens and at kings mountain
tar and feather is a term which originated from the practice administered by the patriot's toward the loyalists
yes, our freedom fighters did their share of terroristic acts. but because they won the war they are recognized as patriots
to segue back toward the thread topic, not long ago we armed and supplied a then termed 'freedom fighter' who was at the time destroying the russian army; his name is osama bin laden. notice how we refer to him now. but be assured, he is recognized by the underclass of islamic society as their own George Washington
 
no, they were committed by both sides
the sons of liberty (samuel adams) was notorious for its treatment of loyalists
Washington countermanded an order his general had issued in new york, thereby allowing the loyalists to continue to be ridden on rails thru the streets
after the waxaws massacre, the patriot militia responded in kind and killed british and loyalist forces who had surrendered
that was true at cowpens and at kings mountain
tar and feather is a term which originated from the practice administered by the patriot's toward the loyalists
yes, our freedom fighters did their share of terroristic acts. but because they won the war they are recognized as patriots
to segue back toward the thread topic, not long ago we armed and supplied a then termed 'freedom fighter' who was at the time destroying the russian army; his name is osama bin laden. notice how we refer to him now. but be assured, he is recognized by the underclass of islamic society as their own George Washington

Funny Bubba, you quote Dana but none of the numerous posters that showed your comparison is hogwash.

Again, we ask, show examples of the founders advocating attacks on civilians.

Show examples of the founders calling for the end of existence for Britain.

Treating enemy troops badly is not "terrorism".

How about you actually address Don's points, or would that be too difficult?

Or continue to just ignore it. Hope you don't mind that if you continue to do that I'll be enjoying pointing out your support for Hitler. Cause you know, Obama is just like Hitler. At least as comparable as your pathetic attempt at linking the founders to terrorists anyways.
 
Almost every suicide attack since the 1980s has been in response to foreign occupation, they are tactful for particular ends. Its not about raw kill counts in mad vengeance its about political efficacy.
 
no, they were committed by both sides
The sons of liberty (Samuel Adams) was notorious for its treatment of loyalists
Washington countermanded an order his general had issued in New York, thereby allowing the loyalists to continue to be ridden on rails thru the streets
After the waxaws massacre, the patriot militia responded in kind and killed British and loyalist forces who had surrendered
That was true at cowpens and at kings mountain
tar and feather is a term which originated from the practice administered by the patriot's toward the loyalists
Yes, our freedom fighters did their share of terroristic acts. but because they won the war they are recognized as patriots
To segue back toward the thread topic, not long ago we armed and supplied a then termed 'freedom fighter' who was at the time destroying the Russian army; his name is Osama bin laden. Notice how we refer to him now. But be assured, he is recognized by the underclass of Islamic society as their own George Washington
While yes, I'm sure both sides (and some only vaguely related groups/persons) committed acts similar to those terrorists might do, equating the two is, as has been pointed out, inaccurate.

The acts may be similar, but fundamental differences exist.
 
I'm confused...

Where did the Founding Father's advocate attacking civilians, or firing randomly into populations without a care for who it hit as long as it caused political change, or called for the destruction or death of the entirity of the British?

You know, because you're ignorantly attempting to compare the Founding Father's to Hamas in the same way people compare Obama to Hitler, I was just wondering if you could clear those issues up.

Thanks!
Well, they did tar and feather loyalists and the Boston tea party was a terrorist-like act, destruction of property.

Just because they did not do the exact same thing in different time periods does not mean that you cannot draw any comparison.

The tactics employed by the American forces were sometimes underhanded and not the acceptable means at the time. They would snipe soldiers, harass them while they were on march, use guerilla tactics and these were almost "terrorist-like". British officers were also sniped at. I believe George Washington himself was caught under the barrel of a soldier and was not killed because the soldier could not go through with it. The prevailing method was that you stand and fight properly and fairly if you wanted to fight. I'm sure people in this time period were appalled at these new tactics just as people in our time period are appalled at attacking civilians.
 
Santayana was right. and so much proof of it is evident on these boards:


one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter
our founding fathers, that exhalted group who fought for and won America's freedom from an oppressive enemy, would have been viewed as terrorists - IF they had not prevailed
it was this collection of "terrorists" who crafted our Constitution, Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights, which is why i have to scoff at seeing such nonsense as "... they don't know how to govern like civilized people ... that will lead to a government that harbors and encourages terrorist activities ..."

By that logic, we shouldn't have killed Nazis during WW2.
 
Well, they did tar and feather loyalists and the Boston tea party was a terrorist-like act, destruction of property.

So you are trying to make an equivalency between this and firing rockets into crowded cities to kill indiscriminantly?

Tarring and Feathering during the revolution wasn't pretty, but there are also no reported deaths during that time as it was often done on top of the victims' clothes-- it was done to humiliate, not to kill mass numbers of civilians indiscriminantly, and there's no evidence it was sanctioned by the founding fathers, which was the claim made. Mobs did it.

The tactics employed by the American forces were sometimes underhanded and not the acceptable means at the time. They would snipe soldiers, harass them while they were on march, use guerilla tactics and these were almost "terrorist-like". British officers were also sniped at. I believe George Washington himself was caught under the barrel of a soldier and was not killed because the soldier could not go through with it. The prevailing method was that you stand and fight properly and fairly if you wanted to fight. I'm sure people in this time period were appalled at these new tactics just as people in our time period are appalled at attacking civilians.

Again, there's no equivalency that can be made here. What you describe was not acceptable to the standard sensibilities of warfare at the time, which counted the life of an aristocratic officer as inherrently more valuable than an infantryman in the line, but they were also violated quite often in european wars and all the targets were military. Complaints from the time were distributed as propaganda against the colonial revolutionaries. None of it was terrorism, not even close.
 
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no, they were committed by both sides
the sons of liberty (samuel adams) was notorious for its treatment of loyalists
Washington countermanded an order his general had issued in new york, thereby allowing the loyalists to continue to be ridden on rails thru the streets
after the waxaws massacre, the patriot militia responded in kind and killed british and loyalist forces who had surrendered
that was true at cowpens and at kings mountain
tar and feather is a term which originated from the practice administered by the patriot's toward the loyalists
yes, our freedom fighters did their share of terroristic acts. but because they won the war they are recognized as patriots
to segue back toward the thread topic, not long ago we armed and supplied a then termed 'freedom fighter' who was at the time destroying the russian army; his name is osama bin laden. notice how we refer to him now. but be assured, he is recognized by the underclass of islamic society as their own George Washington

see the post I made above. Also, the killing of POWs has been a common feature of warfare by all people--and was common until very recently. It is wrong, but it's also not terrorism.
 
Well, they did tar and feather loyalists and the Boston tea party was a terrorist-like act, destruction of property.

Destruction of property is a typical war time endevour, not terrorism. Harassing treatment of troops is also not terrorism.

Just because they did not do the exact same thing in different time periods does not mean that you cannot draw any comparison.

Yes, it is when you're suggesting they're interchangable things. That the founding fathers are no different than Hamas.

Furthermore, just because there's similarities does not necessarily mean the comparison is apt. As I said, look at the "Obama is Hilter" things. There are definitely, legitimate, comparisons between the two. However, the comparison is not apt when you look at a far larger picture of it and realize that those similarities exist over a number of individuals ranging from benevolent to pure evil. The attempt to insult and degrade the Founders and to lift up the terrorists is no different than these Obama and Hitler comparisons. It is an attempt to link something that causes one emotional response to another thing in hopes of that emotional reponse to rub off. In the case of Obama and Hitler, trying to get the hatred for Hitler due to WWII and his treatment of the Jews onto Obama by comparing some of their domestic policies. In this case its attempting to humanize Hamas or insult the founders, hopefully befuddling his opposition rather than actually trying to debate them, by suggesting that because they treated prisoners in odd ways (And seriously, slow public beheading > tar and feather) they're no different than hamas.

Hey, you breath air. You eat food. You probably have had feelings for a woman before. You may've looked at art before and appreciated it. Well, I guess you're just like Hitler. Don't get upset, I'm just making a comparison.

The tactics employed by the American forces were sometimes underhanded and not the acceptable means at the time.

Similar could be said previously regarding different groups and civilizations engaged in war. Unusual tactics does not alone a terrorist make.

They would snipe soldiers, harass them while they were on march, use guerilla tactics and these were almost "terrorist-like".

I bolded something for you.

"Terrorist-Like" is not being the same as terrorists to the point that one can equate the Founding Fathers to Hamas.
 
Washington countermanded an order his general had issued in new york, thereby allowing the loyalists to continue to be ridden on rails thru the streets

Please provide the date and relevant text from Washington's general order on this issue. Second-, third-, or fourth-hand claims are mere speculation. It is Washington's general orders that provide the facts.
 
While yes, I'm sure both sides (and some only vaguely related groups/persons) committed acts similar to those terrorists might do, equating the two is, as has been pointed out, inaccurate.

The acts may be similar, but fundamental differences exist.

the acts are similar but fundamental differences exist, you say
please point out the fundamental differences you find that make this an inappropriate comparison
 
By that logic, we shouldn't have killed Nazis during WW2.

please explain why you find this to be the case as i fail to see any logic in your assertion
 
see the post I made above. Also, the killing of POWs has been a common feature of warfare by all people--and was common until very recently. It is wrong, but it's also not terrorism.

then address the terror of the patriots against those who were loyalists
causing 100,000 to flee to canada
immediately after the war there was an aborted attempt by our soldiers to savage those loyalists who were fleeing the new country
 
OH stop... propaganda is not needed or welcomed here.

the fact is it was israeli freedom fighters who were the first suicide bombers
a fact you may not want to acknowledge but a fact none the less
 
Please provide the date and relevant text from Washington's general order on this issue. Second-, third-, or fourth-hand claims are mere speculation. It is Washington's general orders that provide the facts.

just reciting historical accounts of the time
an account that supports my presentation that our freedom fighters - those we properly exalt today - were willing to do whatever was required to oust an oppressive occupying force
even if it meant using what we call 'terrorism' today
and that is a lesson our country needs to remember before we wmbark on an future attempts to occupy other nations
too bad we did not learn it in vietnam
 
Please provide the date and relevant text from Washington's general order on this issue. Second-, third-, or fourth-hand claims are mere speculation. It is Washington's general orders that provide the facts.
just reciting historical accounts of the time

I'm not surprised that no specific general order was available. The "account" is wholly a matter of incorrect speculation without foundation in fact. Not one of General Washington's orders calls for what today would be characterized as war crimes. In numerous orders, he called for restraint and also punishment for those who committed improper acts that would amount to abuses or war crimes. All of his general orders, among his papers, are online via the Library of Congress.
 
just reciting historical accounts of the time

Then actually quote something. You, who have repeatedly made erronious claims in this thread with no factual backup provided while ignoring actual factual information provided alongside actual citations, are not a credible source on this.

an account that supports my presentation that our freedom fighters - those we properly exalt today - were willing to do whatever was required to oust an oppressive occupying force

Which != terrorism.

Attacking the enemies men is not the same as attacking civilians.

even if it meant using what we call 'terrorism' today

Except you've documented zero examples of the founding fathers engaging in something that is terrorism.

and that is a lesson our country needs to remember before we wmbark on an future attempts to occupy other nations
too bad we did not learn it in vietnam

No, my Hitler loving friend, your lesson is not one our country needs to remember because its grade A, unquestionable, bull**** that you've refused to back up while simultaneously refused to address those that have fully refuted your idiotic claims.
 
the fact is it was israeli freedom fighters who were the first suicide bombers
a fact you may not want to acknowledge but a fact none the less

Please provide citation of actual suicide bombers that are Israeli that were the first to have done it.

Unless you're suggesting the first person to ever THINK of climbing mount everest was the first person to climb mount everest.

Unless you're suggesting that the first person to ever THINK of an automated vehicle was actually the creator of the automobile.

Unless you're suggesting that the first person that concieved a notion of an interconnected digital interface was actually the first designer of the world wide web.
 
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