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Thread: Israeli airstrike kills senior Hamas rocket maker

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    Re: Israeli airstrike kills senior Hamas rocket maker

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I'll respond in full when I get home Operton, however one thing you seem to be missing.

    Your initial response to me was a response to a post I made specifically towards a poster who WAS suggesting that the founding fathers were similar to Hamas. My argument was coming from the view point that such is an incorrect assessment. Suggesting that there are similarities between the founders and terrorists is not incorrect. However, as I already stated, it is a disingenuous argument to make...akin to the Obama = Hitler arguments...because it is not a truly apt description when looked at in any kind of honest sense and when its evident its being used for ulterior emotional purposes.

    One can say Jesus is similar to a terrorist and could be technically correct. One could say Mother Teresa is similar to Charles Manson and be technically correct. One can say that Ahmadinijad is similar to Abraham Lincoln and be technically correct. However actually making those arguments is far from apt, and is exceedingly dishonest when its obvious one is doing such to attempt to influence the reader to equate the emotions and views of one of those individuals to the other individual, typically for reasons other than why those emotions are generated, to somehow bolster their political point. It is no more dishonest then the ridiculous continual character assassinations of Bush or Obama being "hitler".
    we get it
    you WISH the comparison between the use of terroristic techniques against us could be found different from the terroristic techniques we have employed ourselves
    welcome to reality. more doses of it will be dispensed in the very near future
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Israeli airstrike kills senior Hamas rocket maker

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    we get it
    you WISH the comparison between the use of terroristic techniques against us could be found different from the terroristic techniques we have employed ourselves
    welcome to reality. more doses of it will be dispensed in the very near future
    The techniques are the same, but the reasons are different. Therein lies the difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Israeli airstrike kills senior Hamas rocket maker

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The techniques are the same, but the reasons are different. Therein lies the difference.
    please explain how the reasons for the application of terrorism by us is different than for those who apply terrorism against us
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Israeli airstrike kills senior Hamas rocket maker

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    please explain how the reasons for the application of terrorism by us is different than for those who apply terrorism against us
    We targetted civilians, killing hundreds of thousands during WW2. We did that for a good reason: to defeat Germany and Japan and protect the United States. See the difference?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Israeli airstrike kills senior Hamas rocket maker

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I'll respond in full when I get home Operton, however one thing you seem to be missing.

    Your initial response to me was a response to a post I made specifically towards a poster who WAS suggesting that the founding fathers were similar to Hamas. My argument was coming from the view point that such is an incorrect assessment. Suggesting that there are similarities between the founders and terrorists is not incorrect. However, as I already stated, it is a disingenuous argument to make...akin to the Obama = Hitler arguments...because it is not a truly apt description when looked at in any kind of honest sense and when its evident its being used for ulterior emotional purposes.
    I will check back later. One thing I don't think you need to do is have to argue against technicalities. I'm not trying to argue on technicalities and I won't say something just to be technically correct. I'm trying to make a pretty applicable and narrow comparison. I don't think I can speak for justabubba, but I don't think he quite meant to equate the Founding Fathers with Hamas, but I think he meant that both had the same motives of freedom and independence, but one is using total war as a justification. The Sons of Liberty are probably more comparable to Hamas, and the West Bank government is more comparable to the Continental Congress and Founding Fathers.

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    Re: Israeli airstrike kills senior Hamas rocket maker

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    We targetted civilians, killing hundreds of thousands during WW2. We did that for a good reason: to defeat Germany and Japan and protect the United States. See the difference?
    no
    why is killing their civilians for our purposes justifiable while their killing our civilians unjustified?
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Israeli airstrike kills senior Hamas rocket maker

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    no
    why is killing their civilians for our purposes justifiable while their killing our civilians unjustified?
    For the same reason it's ok to kill their soldiers and it's not ok for them to kill our soldiers.

    Let me clue you in on something, there aren't any points for second place in war and there damn sure aren't any good sportsmanship awards handed out at the end of the day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Israeli airstrike kills senior Hamas rocket maker

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    For the same reason it's ok to kill their soldiers and it's not ok for them to kill our soldiers.

    Let me clue you in on something, there aren't any points for second place in war and there damn sure aren't any good sportsmanship awards handed out at the end of the day.
    well, i am delighted to see that you recognize there is truly no difference, other than which side of the tragedy one is on. if we are committing the atrocities, then it is deemed freedom fighting. if the atrocities are being inflicted against us, then we call it terrorism

    and whatever it is called, it is doing what you must do to prevail. that remains the same no matter what term is used to describe it
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Israeli airstrike kills senior Hamas rocket maker

    Quote Originally Posted by Opteron View Post
    Let me post the Merriam-Webster definition of terror:
    4 : violent or destructive acts (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands <insurrection and revolutionary terror>
    Correct, and if one takes a literalistic reading of it one could argue that the revolutionaries engaged in "Terrorism". Additionally one could argue that every act of war ever was terrorism, any protest that has turned violent is terrorism, any vandalism with a political message is terrorism, etc.

    There is a rather large difference between speaking of the very technical definition of terrorism and comparing someone to "terrorists" in a colloquial way that is referencing specific groups and a specific type of terrorist.

    The Boston Tea Party and tarring and feathering were violent and destructive and they did it to intimidate a population and coerce the British government, they were terrorist acts. Tarring and feathering was very painful, they poured hot burning tar on someone. I'm glad the founding fathers did not support tarring and feathering and other violent acts.
    By this statement you're stating any form of political protest where anything is done either violent or destructive = terrorism. Let us start shipping those anti-war protesters or pro-immigration individuals to GITMO since they're terrorists since a few of them have broken windows before in their protest.

    Or one could denote that protests, such as the Boston Tea Party or most war protests, are just that. Protests, aimed at showing the government that the citizenry is unhappy with a particular form of law rather than a concentrated effort to intimidate or scare the government into changing said law. I believe it is a stretch to suggest that people believe that the people performing the Tea Party were hoping such an action would legitimately frighten the crown into actually doing anything as much as it was a show of civil disobedience.

    I'm not at all claiming that the founding fathers are no different than Hamas. Other posters were saying that I believe, I am not saying that. I'm just saying you can draw comparison between what happened in the revolution and today in Israel/Palestine. I'm not claiming they are interchangeable or the same thing, I'm saying you can draw comparison from one time-period to the other. What I'm trying to say is that you can't condemn one group while exonerating the Revolutionaries. Again I condemn terrorism and the killing of civilians as well.
    You may not be, but the implication by the person whose post I was initial responding to WAS that they were no different than Hamas. When you referenced my original post my posts was in line with that line of reasoning and argument being made. Your argument however that they can be compared is worthless, and hollow however. One can absolutely condemn one group and exonerate the other, because in all ways the revolutionaries are NOT the same as terrorist groups such as Hamas. You can not speak to a comparison of some ambiguous "terrorist group" and then to a specific group like the revolutionaries either and except accurate comparisons. That said, one group targets civilians for death, the others don't. That alone is a worth while reason why it would be more apt to condemn one while exonerating another. In direct reference to what this thread was speaking about, you have islamic terrorism, specifically Jihad. They seek to destruction of a globally recognized country, obliterated and made non-existant. The revolutionaries did not seek the destruction of Britain as a whole. Many of the islamic terrorists seek for the conversion or death of all Jews, such was not true with Revolutionaries and the British. Islamic Terrorists wish the end of western culture and society, wishing for them either death or conversion. The Americans did not seek to end British culture or society, only to be able to live their own.

    The latter comparison is not specific. What it's saying is that I'm probably like other many, many other humans who fit that broad description. I'm drawing a more narrow comparison using specific examples.
    You're drawing a more narrow comparison, but its like saying the Sears Tower is bigger than the Empire State Building. Its true, but its not of a great magnitude. For example, one could compare the Founders to many things other than terrorists as well using the similar examples and others. One can also show decided differences between the founders and terrorists as well.

    you can make a comparison between the two. Just as America did use under-handed tactics during the Revolutionary War, Hamas is currently using under-handed tactics as well to achieve their objectives. They both used tactics considered under-handed in their time period.
    Well, obviously you could be viewed as a pedophile.

    Let me explain.

    You've undoubtedly found an attraction to another person before, and engaged in some sort of sexual activity. More than that, I would wager at some point in your life you were attracted to someone under the age of 18, hell under the age of 14, and more than that I bet you've been attracted to someone younger than you in general. I would imagine you have engaged in sexual acts other than missionary sex, which to some people is considered deviant sexual behavior. All of these things....having a sexual attraction for someone under the age of 18/14 that is younger than you and participating in deviant sex acts...are something one can apply directly and specifically to a pedophile. You have those things in common with a pedophile. Therefore its perfectly reasonable to talk about and have vast discussions describing how you are obviously comparable and no more upstanding or worthy of praise then a pedophile.

    (Obviously this is factious, and I do not believe you to be like a pedophile, but it is the exact same line of reasoning Justabubba is using and you're defending)

    So it's ok to do that just because they are soldiers? Also, is it ok to torture captured soldiers as well? When you throw out some rules of war, it's only natural to throw out the rest of the rules as well. An anything goes attitude in war with respect to soldiers will take you to an anything goes attitude for the rest of the war. Civilians can also be considered participants in a war in that they support the country at war and that without their support, the war would not be possible. In total war, the entire country and people are at war with another people. Hamas is adhering to the principle of total war against Israel and that is what they use a justification.
    Is it okay? Hard to answer moral question that's up to the individual whose answering it. For me, if you're asking, I'd base it off the standards of that time and say yes, its "okay" though perhaps not moral. Ditto for torture. Even if immoral, it does not a terrorist make.

    As far as your reference to total war, to my understanding even hamas dismisses this notion. Though I'd be happy to see otherwise. IF this is their justification it would severely change my stance in regards to the Israeli situation to one where it is perfectly obvious Israel should obliterate Gaza off the map as they are actively at war with them.

    Sniping of officers is not acceptable. Generally, higher ranked officers were directing and giving commands, not doing the actual fighting.
    Breaking from war time etiquette does not equate to terrorism, not in the sense that is being referenced by referring to those that are carrying out the acts that this thread was about.

    Your fallacy concerning throwing out the rules of war is irrelevant, its a slippery slope argument. This is like me saying that "saying its okay to punch someone is simply opening up the pathway to allowing murder to be okay" and thus someone who punches another person is just like a murderer. Simply because the revolutionaries did things that were considered "Unfair" and a breach of etiquette and one can suggest terrorism could have be described using those two things as well does not suggest that the revolutionaries were terrorists. Something could be described as cold and refreshing...one of those things could be a pool, the other could be a soft drink. One would not say however that a pool is just like a soft drink simply because they can be described in similar ways.

    I'm just trying to give some perspective and understanding of the two situations.
    Bull****, you're attempting to morally equivocate by taking two large samples, distilling it to a handful of small details, and declaring based on those small details that an overriding comment regarding the generalized similarities of the two groups is apt. You're defending a person who is making a ridiculous and over the top comparison in an attempt to spur an emotional response to score political points by hoping to set a pathetic trap to suggest that anyone disagreeing with him about his continual support for terrorists is also against the founders. He, and you, are no different than those constantly comparing Obama to Hitler.

    Much like the Obama to Hitler situation, the differences are far larger and far more profound between the two and even when one looks at the similarities they are even weak at best and greatly disproportionate if not full out erroneously displayed at worst.

    Actually, let me retract...

    You may have actual sincerity in coming to his defense. You may be arguing an idiotic and rather asinine position, but you may actually be doing it for genuine reasons.

    Its clear and obvious Justabubba is doing no such thing.

    In both cases you BOTH are engaging in the exact same kind of dishonest political rhetoric as those that suggest Obama is like Hitler, or suggest all Muslism are Terrorists, with the only possible difference between the two of you is that you're doing it out of some sort of odd devil's advocates position without realizing the overall dishonesty associated with the intent to make such a comparison where as he is relishing and relying on that dishonest association just like the Obama/Hitler folks.

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    Re: Israeli airstrike kills senior Hamas rocket maker

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    we get it
    you WISH the comparison between the use of terroristic techniques against us could be found different from the terroristic techniques we have employed ourselves
    welcome to reality. more doses of it will be dispensed in the very near future
    First, techniques being similar does not equal being the same as a terrorist.

    Second, having a few similarities with a number of differences, including differences even revolving around the similarities, makes the comparison apt. Unless you believe that Obama can be considered just like Hitler. Well Justabubba, do you? I'd love to hear it on record to see if your pathetic dishonest attempts at smears through far from apt comparisons is universal or if you just reserve it for times when it supports your political endevours.

    Wait, you're forming words and making an argument. Jesus Christ, I had no idea, you could be considered no different than Jeffrey Dahmer Bubba.

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