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Thread: Obama pleads with Republicans on small business bill

  1. #31
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    Re: Obama pleads with Republicans on small business bill

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    and beneficial to small businesses
    You obviously have never owned a small business. Being able to write-off in total rather than depreciate over 20 years is crucial to preserving capital.


    i think it is a very apt comparison
    that person who inherited the estate will have to pay taxes on it like that person who won the lottery
    neither worked for their new found money
    both should have to pay for that income just like those who worked for a paycheck

    NOPE. not to the person who inherited that income. every dollar was unearned income on which they have paid no taxes. why should money one has not earned go untaxed while those who work to receive an income have to pay taxes on their hard won money?
    The money was taxed. Will we now tax birthday checks? Christmas presents? Give me a break.

    there is no confiscation. you need to become acquainted with a new term: "probate"
    it is very different from confiscation. learn the difference
    Grasshopper, I'm quite familiar with probate.

    NOPE. you are wrong again. which is why you need to immediately embark on a study of probate to find out the actual process
    Link please?

    the business is not having to pay the estate taxes. the beneficiary is. this assumes the deceased failed to obtain good counsel and place the estate in a trust to avoid the inheritance tax which may result
    Wrong. The estate pays the taxes before the money is distributed. That's why it's called an estate tax. Why should anyone have to "obtain good legal counsel" to protect one's assets from confiscation?

    why would the need of the beneficiary to pay estate taxes necessarily cause the business to close its doors eliminating the workforce of the employer? if the person who inherited those ASSETS is illiquid, then they could either obtain a loan against the assets they had realized to satisfy their tax obligation, or sell all or part of their business interest to satisfy that debt. they now own assets they did not otherwse possess, and can use those newfound assets to cover the inheritance taxes. notice that none of that caused the dissolution of the small business. a profitable small business will have some degree of equity, which equity can be realized. only someone with a limited understanding of economics would presume that a small business must be closed and sold to pay inheritance taxes
    I think you'd better do your own research, Grasshopper. Again, it's a tax on the estate. The estate pays the taxes. The estate pays the tax, not the recipient.

    again, you have proven your fundamental ignorance of basic economics. again, let us assume the deceased failed to adequately shelter his farm estate in a trust to avoid inheritance taxes, causing the beneficiaries to have to find the monies to pay the taxes due. just as with the above described business, the farm can be used as collateral to realize loan monies to satisfy the estate's taxes. Since you specifically addressed the 'highest and best use' value of the farm, that has a variety of implications on the estate. some communities establish a 'farm' tax valuation, which could be pointed to as the legitimate value of the estate being passed, thereby diminishing the tax amount due. but if that is not a possibility or where the farm will not continue to be operated as a farm entity causing it to lose its eligiblity for continued 'farm' valuation, here is the consequence of it being found to possess its full 'highest and best use' valuation: it will be subject to increased taxes ... BUT only because it will carry a higher value. the beneficiary would thus realize a higher benefit upon which they would pay equitably higher taxes.
    Does it make you feel better to claim others are ignorant? Makes no difference if it's taxed at highest-and-best or as farmland. It's all nothing but confiscation of wealth.

    let's examine that position. you think it is government theft to tax unearned income of the beneficiary who did nothing to realize that income, while it is accpetable for the wage earner to be subject to taxes on every dollar of income they worked to realize
    i think it is actually closer to theft when the person who did nothing to realize their windfall pays no taxes which have to be made up for by the person who works for and pays taxes on their income
    Why are you bringing up wage earners? That simply confuses the issue. But, of course, you know that. Inheritance taxes are, at their core, merely a confiscation of wealth.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  2. #32
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    Re: Obama pleads with Republicans on small business bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Earned, and unearned is simply a category. The money is taxed twice, any way you want to spin it. You focus on the individual, when you should focus on the money. The beneficiary is the one who benefits from the one who earned it. It's a benefit to being the beneficiary of the earner. The arguement you make is a slippery slope argument, in that, any benefit a beneficiary receives is grounds to justify any host of penalities, under any set of circumstances. In this sense, the benefit, any beneficiary receives, cancels out any meaningful dialogue on justification, and we're left with the underlying problem. Should earned income be taxed twice? I say no!

    Tim-
    but it is NOT earned income
    and yes it deserves to be taxed
    if was an unearned windfall, and that does not cause it to deserve to be expemted from tax obligations
    in my opinion, income realized without incurring labor should be taxed at at least the rate as income realized from the expenditure of labor
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
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  3. #33
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    Re: Obama pleads with Republicans on small business bill

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    but it is NOT earned income
    and yes it deserves to be taxed
    if was an unearned windfall, and that does not cause it to deserve to be expemted from tax obligations
    in my opinion, income realized without incurring labor should be taxed at at least the rate as income realized from the expenditure of labor
    Again, it is the ESTATE that is taxed -- not the person receiving the money. At least get it right. It's not much different than taxing money that's been SAVED while one is still alive. Hey. Maybe that'll be next.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  4. #34
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    Re: Obama pleads with Republicans on small business bill

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    but it is NOT earned income
    and yes it deserves to be taxed
    if was an unearned windfall, and that does not cause it to deserve to be expemted from tax obligations
    in my opinion, income realized without incurring labor should be taxed at at least the rate as income realized from the expenditure of labor
    Dude.. This is the exact definition of slippery slope.. You're coming at it from the wrong direction, and as such your argument is fallicious.

    Just sayin. You're welcome to your views on the matter.

    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: Obama pleads with Republicans on small business bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Dude.. This is the exact definition of slippery slope.. You're coming at it from the wrong direction, and as such your argument is fallicious.

    Just sayin. You're welcome to your views on the matter.

    Tim-
    well thank you very much for authorizing me to enjoy my own opinion while offering nothing of substance to refute my stated position about the equity of estate taxes
    i would continue to disabuse you of your foolish notions but can only conclude you are without the capacity
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  6. #36
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    Re: Obama pleads with Republicans on small business bill

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    well thank you very much for authorizing me to enjoy my own opinion while offering nothing of substance to refute my stated position about the equity of estate taxes
    i would continue to disabuse you of your foolish notions but can only conclude you are without the capacity
    An arrogant position doesn't do much for your argument.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Obama pleads with Republicans on small business bill

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    An arrogant position doesn't do much for your argument.
    ok, yet another forumite who prefers form over substance
    that is enough reason to recognize there is no value in your opinion regarding this matter
    but if you choose an opportunity to offer something thought provoking, PM me so that i can celebrate with you
    maybe even begin with a response to the thread topic "Obama pleads with Republicans on small business bill" rather than whining about the indifferent attitude of the posters
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Obama pleads with Republicans on small business bill

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    ok, yet another forumite who prefers form over substance
    that is enough reason to recognize there is no value in your opinion regarding this matter
    but if you choose an opportunity to offer something thought provoking, PM me so that i can celebrate with you
    maybe even begin with a response to the thread topic "Obama pleads with Republicans on small business bill" rather than whining about the indifferent attitude of the posters
    I posted my opinion on this topic. You disagreed. That's fine. But arrogance isn't debating. Insulting isn't debating. Neither is contemptuous disregard. Happens to be a pet peeve of mine. PM you? Unless PM stands for something other than Private Message, don't count on it.

    Back to the thread....why is an ESTATE paying tax on money that's already been taxed?? Your argument fails.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Obama pleads with Republicans on small business bill

    You don't have sybstance. You're simply applying the same justification that the congress is applying. Call it substance if you like, but I provided a logical refutation of that reasoning. If you dismiss it, hey, not my problem.

    The sum result is that the "money" is taxed twice! Period!


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: Obama pleads with Republicans on small business bill

    I should point out that most big business is doing fine these days. They are by far the healthiest of economic indicators. They are also holding on to about 1 TRILLION in cash, cash that could be used to expand, hire new people ect.

    It should also be noted that while Regan was a strong supporter of tax cuts, when he was facing rising deficits he also raised taxes. He had a large tax INCREASE on business in 1982, payroll tax increases in 1983, and higher energy taxes in 1984. People like to say that while these tax increases are true, you didn't see the effect of Reagan's policies really until the economy had more time to digest and spit out an outcome. Its funny that nobody wants to be patient with Obama either.

    When the first President Bush was facing high deficits he also increased taxes on the rich in 1991, while Clinton raised taxes on the rich in 1993.
    Ever have to dance with the devil in the pale moonlight?
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