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Thread: Britain Plans to Decentralize Health Care

  1. #21
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    Re: Britain Plans to Decentralize Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Normally I just ignore you but this is just too full of crap to let fly. First of all I've seen the WHO report myself. Considering they are pro-UHC biased and just threw out blanket numbers with no analysis it's not surprising people outside of the health or insurance industry who want handouts for all use their numbers blindly.
    So now to bring the hammer down on your inaccuracies.
    Okay..

    Not factoring in that less people in the UK own vehicles or have less disposable income due to tax and regulate,among(which can lead to premature deaths among the reckless and unfortunate) other lifestyle factors and the numbers still only skew up by what amounts to a little over a year. Nice oops yourself.
    LOL talk about being inaccurate and muddying the waters. What exactly does owning less cars have to do with health? And less disposable income.. what... on earth does that have to do with it.. and I am not even sure that is correct. Prove it.

    So basically... wups what on earth does this have to do with anything!?

    Which is an irrelavent statistic considering the US is not a homogenous population with different laws and ways of living. Another Pete wups.
    Eh? Seriously where do you get this crap. What on earth does this have to do with the statistic? Are you blaming the blacks or something? It is hardly an irrelevant statistic. It shows how many children die in a country before they are 5. Now this can be accidents or it can be disease. Are you claiming that US parents are so bad at parenting that they kill their children more than other nations?

    The U.S. has a doctor shortage due to legally limited doctor enrollment by federal law in which the AMA lobbied for in the early part of the 1900's, guess your little WHO propoganda piece didn't give you that piece of info did it?
    Actually that is common place in ALL countries.. so that is evened out! Most countries have limits on enrolment into medical schools, including the UK.

    And more sanitation problems coupled with longer wait times, worse satisfaction scores, and a much higher critical care mortality rate. To quote you wups.
    yes you guys do have a few stats you are better at. So that is what.. 4 out of how many hundred? Got any more.. Yes I know about the cancer statistics.

    And sanitation problems are often because that the cleaning has been outsourced to private companies. Our standards are as good as American standards when it comes to sanitation, but because of the gutting of the NHS, hospitals have been forced to privatize the cleaning of hospitals, and that has meant that the cleaning has suffered. It happened in Denmark as well.

    As for "satisfaction scores", it is not exactly a statistic that is comparable. People might not be satisfied enough with the NHS, but if you ask them if it should be privatised and broken up then you would find that a huge majority would say no. Hell France and Spain have some of the best healthcare systems in the world, and the population are never satisfied with them and yet they would never ever get rid of them.

    As for waiting lists.. you do know they exist in your oh so perfect system right? Plus it is easy to cut waiting lists if you dont cover more than 60% of your population and the rest just die at home or in emergency rooms when it is too late...

    Not even close.
    OH.. I know the US beats most on cancer statistics, but what else? And even here, it is only statistics on those that are treated.. there are no statistics on those not treated because they cant afford going to the doctor... they dont show up in the official cancer statistics.

    I'd rather pay more for better than less for crap.
    I agree, but in the US case you are paying much much more for worse than most European countries on average..... then again if you are willing to pay for liver transplants for 70+ year odl alcoholic multi millionaire instead using the liver on someone who can contribute to society, then by all means go ahead.

    LOL, you can't even come close to claiming that. The UK has more unemployment historically and Europe is the handout capital of the free world. What was that word you used again? Oh yeah........wups.
    On the UK unemployment .. prove it.. and let me remind you the official US unemployment figures are not reliable as people can fall out of the statistics after a certain time.. not to mention it is a freaking poll... only real unemployment statistics even get close.

    As for the "handout capital of the free world".. 30+ years ago sure, now.. not so much. Your sense of reality about Europe seems stuck in the 1960s and 1970s. Europe as a whole, has over the last 30 years changed very much on almost every level.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Britain Plans to Decentralize Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Rightwingnutjob View Post
    I'm sure it's not the only area you have that belief.

    The members of society who make an EFFORT to be healthy and to work should have healthcare for themselves and their children. I genuinely believe some people NEED help. I also believe that the vast majority don't. Health care is a privelege, NOT a right.
    Healthcare should be a RIGHT, and we can all contribute either with money or some kind of community service, like cleaning hospital beds. The greatest asset of this country is our people, and we should not treat them like garbage because they dont make a lot of money.

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    Re: Britain Plans to Decentralize Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Normally I just ignore you but this is just too full of crap to let fly. First of all I've seen the WHO report myself. Considering they are pro-UHC biased and just threw out blanket numbers with no analysis it's not surprising people outside of the health or insurance industry who want handouts for all use their numbers blindly.
    So now to bring the hammer down on your inaccuracies.
    Violent deaths (i.e. shootings, etc) are also higher in the US then many other places (such as Japan, UK) in the world. Vicitims of violent deaths tend to be younger, so, like car accidednts, they have a greater impact on life expectancy than other types of deaths.

    You also forgot the fact that the US counts a live birth much differently then the rest of the world. The US counts a live birth if the infant shows any sign of life. Other countries will only count a live birth if the baby has certain weight, height, circumfrance measurements. Teen pregnancies and fertiliity treatments are also much higher in the US then most other countries. All things that can affect numbers.
    Last edited by buck; 07-27-10 at 01:18 PM.

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    Re: Britain Plans to Decentralize Health Care

    "The plan would result in thousands of layoffs among health care workers, and across the board cuts in everything from hip and cataract surgery to pediatric and maternity services, according to Britain's Sunday Telegraph. The NHS already doles out certain health services, and is likely to increase rationing on common procedures like knee replacements and orthodontic treatment."

    Hype, rhetoric and ideology aside...the reality is that government run healthcare is a nightmare. Britain is trying to save money by getting out of the beauracratic and administrative side and allow regional managers to spend the money as the region sees fit. We do the same thing in this country already with Medicare/Medicaid...we contract services to private businesses. This is a nightmare. You will see a significant portion of that 160 billion go into the pocket of the administrators that are awarded the bid. You will see reductions in services. You will see doing more with less, doctors with greater caseloads, and a reduction in care. I suspect this aint gonna be pretty...

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    Re: Britain Plans to Decentralize Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Okay..


    As for the "handout capital of the free world".. 30+ years ago sure, now.. not so much. Your sense of reality about Europe seems stuck in the 1960s and 1970s. Europe as a whole, has over the last 30 years changed very much on almost every level.
    In order for ANY of the WHO stats to be valid they have to do a straigh up apples to apples comparison. They dont because every country reports things differently. In some countries live births and infant mortality arent even counted until the baby is two months old. In some countries children born premature or with handicaps are never counted in their infant mortality statistics. Its interesting that people that USE statistics so much dont adhere to basic standards of validity and reliability in their research.

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    Re: Britain Plans to Decentralize Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Mango View Post
    Healthcare should be a RIGHT, and we can all contribute either with money or some kind of community service, like cleaning hospital beds. The greatest asset of this country is our people, and we should not treat them like garbage because they dont make a lot of money.
    No it shouldn't. Some of the dirt bags I see out there disgust me. What gives a woman the right to abandon her husband and father of three kids to run off with some abusive woman and ONE of her three kids move the kid from school to school (about 5 times a year) and then get free health care? This scum can rot in a ditch for all I care. That kid has been through hell and back. I can only pray he makes it out okay.

    What gives a successful construction business owner the right to federal health care? That cheating the system. They could easily afford their own.

    When I go and work on someone's house, someone foreign, and they say, "You Americans don't know how to take advantage of the system," I feel like taking my pliers and shoving them down their throat. This person doesn't deserve any help either.

    These are just a couple examples.

    Now the woman who works 60 hours a week as a single mother to support two kids going to college and is struggling to buy enough food for herself? Sure, I'll help that person.

    Health care is NOT a right and there are many people in this country that are not an asset at all. In fact some are less of an asset than the weeds that grow on my lawn (at least you can eat some of those, so I hear!).

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    Re: Britain Plans to Decentralize Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Violent deaths (i.e. shootings, etc) are also higher in the US then many other places (such as Japan, UK) in the world. Vicitims of violent deaths tend to be younger, so, like car accidednts, they have a greater impact on life expectancy than other types of deaths.
    That's true as well. I just put it as other to keep things on topic.

    You also forgot the fact that the US counts a live birth much differently then the rest of the world.
    I sure did, thank you for reminding me of that.
    The US counts a live birth if the infant shows any sign of life. Other countries will only count a live birth if the baby has certain weight, height, circumfrance measurements. Teen pregnancies and fertiliity treatments are also much higher in the US then most other countries. All things that can affect numbers.
    Yeah, it again speaks to the dishonesty of the WHO international statistics.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Britain Plans to Decentralize Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Violent deaths (i.e. shootings, etc) are also higher in the US then many other places (such as Japan, UK) in the world. Vicitims of violent deaths tend to be younger, so, like car accidednts, they have a greater impact on life expectancy than other types of deaths.
    And it is colder in Sweden so there is a larger chance people freeze to death. Lets not forget it is also darker there, so people can die of depression. How about in Souther Europe where there is a higher risk of dehydration during the summer, or Greece has a lot of forest fires, or floods in Poland, or left over radiation from Chernobyl and on and on.. in other words... a lame excuse. It statistically means nothing. The only thing that might have a statistical impact is the diet of some regions of the world, but even then it is not really worth mentioning too much since it is evening it self out as even these nations are turning to the same food stuffs as American's.

    You also forgot the fact that the US counts a live birth much differently then the rest of the world. The US counts a live birth if the infant shows any sign of life. Other countries will only count a live birth if the baby has certain weight, height, circumfrance measurements.
    Actually another lie by the US right wing. While you are correct countries have different rules on birth, the actual difference is statistically non existent. For example, some countries say that children born before 23 weeks of gestation are not counted as live births. Yes that is different than the US version of any child born is considered live, however what your right wing friends forget to mention is that there is a only a handful if that many babies born under 23 weeks of gestation that have ever lived. Hence those few children around the world that have been born before 23 weeks of gestation and lived ... it is statistically irrelevant when talking about thousands of births a year. And if you think for a second that European doctors dont try to save a child born under 23 weeks then you are frankly a moron.. of course they do. But the chance of such a child surviving is under 1% and at some point every medical professional has to make the call if the amount of energy and money spent on trying to save a lost cause is worth it. If a child is born at say 10 weeks, even in the US... it is considered dead at birth since it can survive.

    Teen pregnancies
    Yes, that is another subject.

    and fertiliity treatments are also much higher in the US then most other countries. All things that can affect numbers.
    Hmm prove your fertility treatment claim. Fertility treatments are very common here in Europe. But what the hell does it have to do with health statistics? As for effecting the numbers.. how exactly does teen pregnancy effect child mortality rates under 5 years? Are you saying your teens murder their kids?
    PeteEU

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    Re: Britain Plans to Decentralize Health Care

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post


    LOL talk about being inaccurate and muddying the waters. What exactly does owning less cars have to do with health?
    Car accidents = more health issues and fatalities from accidents. Very simple actuarial fact.
    And less disposable income.. what... on earth does that have to do with it.. and I am not even sure that is correct. Prove it.
    More money equals more availability of risky behavior to those less disciplined. Per Capita Income Around the World Using the most common PPP method the U.S. is the third in the world, Luxemburg has a favorable banking economy so they are an odd case. But you get the point, have fun spinning your way out of that.




    Eh? Seriously where do you get this crap. What on earth does this have to do with the statistic? Are you blaming the blacks or something?
    Wow, you really didn't understand at all did you? It's very simple, Spain, France, etc. have a similar lifestyle and almost universal cultural and dietary norms, the U.S. is regional with those regions having completely different lifestyles and dietary choices. Having nothing to do with race makeup. Stretch much?
    It is hardly an irrelevant statistic.
    It's not hardly an irrelevant statistic, its completely irrelevant.
    It shows how many children die in a country before they are 5. Now this can be accidents or it can be disease. Are you claiming that US parents are so bad at parenting that they kill their children more than other nations?
    It's been addressed already, infant mortality comparisons are incompatible.


    Actually that is common place in ALL countries.. so that is evened out! Most countries have limits on enrolment into medical schools, including the UK.
    And a more studious poster has already proven your data wrong......so......?



    yes you guys do have a few stats you are better at. So that is what.. 4 out of how many hundred? Got any more.. Yes I know about the cancer statistics.
    And that is with the WHO biased presentation. If you actually used appropriate measurements it would be a lopsided US win. What's your point?

    And sanitation problems are often because that the cleaning has been outsourced to private companies. Our standards are as good as American standards when it comes to sanitation, but because of the gutting of the NHS, hospitals have been forced to privatize the cleaning of hospitals, and that has meant that the cleaning has suffered. It happened in Denmark as well.
    Obviously not if you are losing in the sanitation department.....here's a hint, in healthcare that's pretty important.

    As for "satisfaction scores", it is not exactly a statistic that is comparable.
    Because you lose that one.
    People might not be satisfied enough with the NHS, but if you ask them if it should be privatised and broken up then you would find that a huge majority would say no.
    Because they've been conditioned to expect entitlements, so again they settle for less. This doesn't improve dissatisfaction, only accepts it and apologizes for it.
    Hell France and Spain have some of the best healthcare systems in the world, and the population are never satisfied with them and yet they would never ever get rid of them.
    Except when they get denied or have to wait for critical surgeries of course.

    As for waiting lists.. you do know they exist in your oh so perfect system right?
    Actually, not really. It's pretty easy to get an appointment within weeks versus quarters, half-years, etc. You lose on that point as well.
    Plus it is easy to cut waiting lists if you dont cover more than 60% of your population and the rest just die at home or in emergency rooms when it is too late...
    Half of all statistics are made up on the spot. Seriously, did you just pull that out of thin air? That is a bull**** claim if I've ever heard one.

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    Re: Britain Plans to Decentralize Health Care

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter
    First of all I've seen the WHO report myself. Considering they are pro-UHC biased and just threw out blanket numbers with no analysis it's not surprising people outside of the health or insurance industry who want handouts for all use their numbers blindly.
    Feel free to use your source that's as reputable as an organization as WHO.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter
    The U.S. has a doctor shortage due to legally limited doctor enrollment by federal law in which the AMA lobbied for in the early part of the 1900's, guess your little WHO propoganda piece didn't give you that piece of info did it?
    What federal law is that? Are you talking about in 1997 when, to save money and prevent a doctor glut, Congress capped the number of residents that Medicare will pay for at about 80,000 a year.

    That's not quite the same as "legally limited" doctor enrollment.

    The government even pays for more doctors with another 20,000 residents that are financed by the Veterans Administration and Medicaid.

    Durn guv'ment, ought to keep their hands ouffa training my doctor...LOL


    The thing with comparing the stats from one health care system to another is not to show which one has a percentage point advantage over another. It's to show that all of the industrialized nations health care system's outcomes are very similar.

    If one country's life expectancy is .6 of a percent higher than another, what does that mean to you? It doesn't speak to the quality of life for that extra few months AND it doesn't speak to you specifically.

    What does a country having .2 doctors more per capita mean to you if you live in rural Montana? What about NYC?


    With all industrialized system having comparatively similar health care systems, guess which one costs the most, by far, and covers the least amount of it's citizens?
    “We just simply don’t know how to govern” - Rep. Steve Womack (R-AR) a member of the House Budget Committee

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