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WikiLeaks Data Seem to Show Pakistan Helped Attack American Troops

I think the world should know that Pakistan is providing support to the Taliban so we know what kind of ally Pakistan supposedly is. Covering it up is just trying to appease the country and not spoil relations. Should the part about the heat-seeking missiles have been disclosed, probably not. If they would have withheld that part, they could have claimed they weren't harming the troops and it would have helped their credibility.

I actually think this will have little effect on the war anyways both policy and military-wise, and is probably more a media and political problem than anything else.
 
Like where British soldiers are positioned or if they are going to do a "surprise" attack on the Taliban the next day secret, sure.

British soldiers allegedly killing children and civilians? No bloody way.


TripleAgent said:
If it is simply collateral damage, why do they keep it secret? It seems to me that if they would just release the information about civillian casualties and not be so secretive about it, the public would be able to swallow it easier.


Look, I think you are both saying roughly the same thing here, so I will address it all at once.

There are several reasons to keep collateral damage classified. First, obviously is troop morale. Then ofcourse, you don't want to tip the enemy off as to what it is that they can exploit against you. And lastly you don't want leaks within your own forces.

These things are elementary, Both of your wanting of the public to know every little facet of the war and how it is carried out is not for you to either know, nor is for you to judge, unless you are advocating the release of this information to lead to a loss in that effort.

j-mac
 
Look, I think you are both saying roughly the same thing here, so I will address it all at once.

There are several reasons to keep collateral damage classified. First, obviously is troop morale.
i missed your point. or do you really believe the troops are unaware that they are causing collateral damage
do you think the civilians are unaware they are the victims of collateral damage
it would appear to be the American public which was actually being shielded from hearing the truth about collateral damage. so, how is that damaging to troop morale?
Then ofcourse, you don't want to tip the enemy off as to what it is that they can exploit against you.
and what was released that can be exploited by the enemy?
And lastly you don't want leaks within your own forces.
i think you are referring to the element of trust
how trustworthy is it of the military to conceal its inappropriate activities from the American public?

These things are elementary,
elementary ... and off base
Both of your wanting of the public to know every little facet of the war and how it is carried out is not for you to either know, ...
no one appears to be seeking information about the routine and that which is normally expected during war ... those little facets
nor is for you to judge, ...
absolutely it is incumbent on American citizens to judge. the government/military works on behalf of the American public. we need to know when our government/military have gone off in the wrong direction; otherwise a course correction will not be found necessary to be made
unless you are advocating the release of this information to lead to a loss in that effort.
why would wanting to make sure our government/military is heading in the right direction, while applying national values in that undertaking, be found as something other than seeking a right course ... why do you see citizens' diligence as a percursor to a loss?

 
Do you think that if any of these documents did put US troops in danger, these people would have withheld them?

Are you asking if WikiLeaks would have not published this if it put US lives in danger? I dunno. The fact that they have not hesitated to put people's lives at risk makes me think no.

While I don't much like that WikiLeaks posted this stuff, I think once the documents where given to them, it was fair game. However, to post the stuff without redacting the names of people is just incredibly irresponsible, and should any of these people or their families be targeted(which is likely), WikiLeaks will share in the responsibility for their deaths.
 
I honestly don't think the public has a "right to know" everything at every moment its going on. I will use this as an example... when 9/11 happened, news reports told us and everyone else who could pick up the stories exactly where the President was, where the Vice-president was located, and where most of his staff was. Planes were still in the air and unaccounted for at the time. That information in the wrong hands could have potentially killed the President and his staff. Luckily, it didn't happen. But you never know.

In the case of these leaks....It is flat out stupid and dangerous to give the enemy information on how you are running a war. Names of people, American or not, that doesn't matter. Now I don't think these leaks are going to be truly damaging to us in the war, but you don't know.

All I know is this... If you are playing a football game, you certainly don't give the opposing team your dang playbook if you expect to win! Everyone behind these leaks should be ashamed of themselves and should most definitely be called to the mat for it.
 
I honestly don't think the public has a "right to know" everything at every moment its going on. I will use this as an example... when 9/11 happened, news reports told us and everyone else who could pick up the stories exactly where the President was, where the Vice-president was located, and where most of his staff was. Planes were still in the air and unaccounted for at the time. That information in the wrong hands could have potentially killed the President and his staff. Luckily, it didn't happen. But you never know.

In the case of these leaks....It is flat out stupid and dangerous to give the enemy information on how you are running a war. Names of people, American or not, that doesn't matter. Now I don't think these leaks are going to be truly damaging to us in the war, but you don't know.

All I know is this... If you are playing a football game, you certainly don't give the opposing team your dang playbook if you expect to win! Everyone behind these leaks should be ashamed of themselves and should most definitely be called to the mat for it.

let's pursue your football game comparison
i can see no instance in which the playbook was revealed to the other side
what i observe instead is the commentator at half time identifying the failures of one of the teams
now please explain how that helped the other team
or alternatively, explain what about this incident compares to a playbook, outlining future game options
 
Point taken. I'm just saying... releasing the names was irresponsible. Actually most of what was leaked wasn't new information. It was mostly all already out there. This very well may do no damage whatsoever to anyone in this war. I still think it was irresponsible and wrong.
 
The people responsible for Wikileaks need to be arrested, and their website shut down permanently.

Tut tut, are we no longer in favor of Free Speech?

Strange how our attitudes change when those we support or encourage are revealed to be not quite as pristine as we would like them to be viewed as?
 
If it is simply collateral damage, why do they keep it secret? It seems to me that if they would just release the information about civillian casualties and not be so secretive about it, the public would be able to swallow it easier.

They don't want to release the statistics on collateral damage because the enemy will use it as propaganda for recrutment. At the same time they blow up girls schools and kill civilians with car bombs and we don't here the outrage. Whats up with that?
 
They don't want to release the statistics on collateral damage because the enemy will use it as propaganda for recrutment. At the same time they blow up girls schools and kill civilians with car bombs and we don't here the outrage. Whats up with that?

They'd use it for recruitment? Do you think the average male Afghan hillbilly needs much to join the insurgency other than being told that the land he lives on is being invaded? You're acting like these people would need PDFs and Power Point presentations to strap on a bomb.
 
They don't want to release the statistics on collateral damage because the enemy will use it as propaganda for recrutment. At the same time they blow up girls schools and kill civilians with car bombs and we don't here the outrage. Whats up with that?

They recruiting based only on the notion that Americans are invaders, killing civillians, regardless of the factual basis, and regardless of whether or not we Americans hear of it. And, last time I checked, Americans ARE outraged about the enemy blowing up schools and cars.

Let me ask you, Rock, are you one of those people that support the internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II? After all, they were "dangerous to the national unity and to the war effort." At what point do we stop and say "Hey, maybe the war isn't worth sacrificing our values, whether it be freedom of speech, freedom of information, or even just plain freedom.
 
I don't know what you did there, but that looks bad.

Edit: looks like you fixed it.
 
I don't know what you did there, but that looks bad.

Edit: looks like you fixed it.


yep, tried to link so that the video would be ready to play already on this screen...Then just went back and posted a link to the site.

j-mac
 
Tut tut, are we no longer in favor of Free Speech?

Strange how our attitudes change when those we support or encourage are revealed to be not quite as pristine as we would like them to be viewed as?

"Free speech" also comes with a measure of responsibility. Unfortunately, the media as well as individuals don't concern themselves with such hindrances these days. However our government was dealing with Pakistan's lack of iternal loyalty and disunity I'm sure these released reports only made it harder. But who cares, right? It's only our troops that get caught between people's twisted ideas of how best to celebrate their unearned and undeserving "free speech."

Do you know why diplomacy works? Because you, your neighbor, me, and the bum on the corner aren't privy to the conversations, deals, and compromises between governments. Without such 'under the radar' relationships, war becomes the only answer.
 
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They don't want to release the statistics on collateral damage because the enemy will use it as propaganda for recrutment. At the same time they blow up girls schools and kill civilians with car bombs and we don't here the outrage. Whats up with that?

In all actuallity to the Afghanis official US stats on collateral damage are meaningless, they would get their info from other Afghanis through word of mouth, not from official US announcements, which I bet most Afghanis dont believe anyway.

They dont want to release the stats on collateral damage for domestic US/ally consumption. American and the various allied countries po pulations would see support drop with higher reports of US/ISAF killing Afghani civilians. (The "reason" we are their now is to protect the Afghani public, not to kill them)
 
People are talking about free speech, but what about the right to privacy? What happened was not an exercise of free speech. 2 things happened here.
1) The government's right to private and classified information was infringed upon.
2) Those who leaked this information stole it. It was not their property, nor their right to take and disclose what they had accessed illegally.

Consider this. Would it be wrong to sneak into a cookie company and steal their top secret recipe? Would it also be illegal to disclose that recipe to everyone else? Would it be illegal for me to hack into your medical records and then release them to everyone (I say this because I have had to go through extensive training on patient privacy and how carefully we must guard patient information with my new job). The comparison doesn't equal the crime that has gone on in the wikileaks situation. They have stolen classified information from the military and have disclosed it. It's a threat to national security as well as theft and invasion of privacy.
 
People are talking about free speech, but what about the right to privacy? What happened was not an exercise of free speech. 2 things happened here.
1) The government's right to private and classified information was infringed upon.
2) Those who leaked this information stole it. It was not their property, nor their right to take and disclose what they had accessed illegally.

Consider this. Would it be wrong to sneak into a cookie company and steal their top secret recipe? Would it also be illegal to disclose that recipe to everyone else? Would it be illegal for me to hack into your medical records and then release them to everyone (I say this because I have had to go through extensive training on patient privacy and how carefully we must guard patient information with my new job). The comparison doesn't equal the crime that has gone on in the wikileaks situation. They have stolen classified information from the military and have disclosed it. It's a threat to national security as well as theft and invasion of privacy.

i suppose you are similarly opposed to the subordinate employees of arlington national cemetary whistleblowing about the poor records management practices of their federal employer
but for that insight by staff releasing what the management would have wanted to keep secret, we would not have become aware of the massive ineptitude
 
i suppose you are similarly opposed to the subordinate employees of arlington national cemetary whistleblowing about the poor records management practices of their federal employer
but for that insight by staff releasing what the management would have wanted to keep secret, we would not have become aware of the massive ineptitude

That is a different situation with different circumstances. Army investigators were the ones who looked into it, and the information directly dealt with the living family and friends of those buried in the cemetery. As far as I know, nothing was "leaked" in that info was stolen and made public.
 
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With the press tightly controlled in Afghanistan, I am happy the documents were leaked. Now we know just how badly the war is going and our governments can no longer lie to us. This is a democracy, we control the military by proxy of our elected officials, and I say this war needs to end now.
 
With the press tightly controlled in Afghanistan, I am happy the documents were leaked. Now we know just how badly the war is going and our governments can no longer lie to us. This is a democracy, we control the military by proxy of our elected officials, and I say this war needs to end now.

We are a Republic. But I agree with the rest. End War NOW:(
 
People are talking about free speech, but what about the right to privacy?

Oh don't be silly. Nothing trumps the busy body gossiper's chant, "you have a right to know."
 
With the press tightly controlled in Afghanistan, I am happy the documents were leaked. Now we know just how badly the war is going and our governments can no longer lie to us. This is a democracy, we control the military by proxy of our elected officials, and I say this war needs to end now.

Yeah, I don't think the illusion matches with the reality. I really don't think the elected officials care about your opinions. We left Iraq when we were done, and we will leave Afghanistan in the same fashion.

Afghanistan isn't going any more badly than Iraq was when you deemed it a failure and demanded a fetal position. If you knew the half of what goes on in war, you would see them all as "going badly." A reason the daily routines and events of war aren't for public consumption is that the public is without perspective and without operational awareness. I wonder how today's pundits would behave if the beaches of Normandy were littered with media and daily reports splashed across our television sets. Or on the islands of the Pacific. There's no coincidence that our struggle with "victory" began when television sets began featuring war correspondances and political interferences. "Failure" is the rallying cry of the ignorant.

You know the secret to winning wars? It's not techonology or numbers. Historically it has more often-than-not come down to which side had the will to win. Our enemies have the will to win because we refuse tobreak that will. We are too afraid of the civilian. Too afraid of "lowering" ourselves. Too afraid to come off of our self-righteous perches to meet our enemies. It's us that has become terrified of winning for fear of what we may look like.
 
We are a Republic. But I agree with the rest. End War NOW:(

So...just end it? Pick up our toys and go home and our enemies will just respect us for it and live out their remainder days in peace and harmony over a cold Coca~Cola? You forget who started it. I doubt they are willing to play nice.

See, the problem with being an American is that we seem to talk ourselves into more blood shed than we have to by pretending that matters "aren't our business" or that every situation has a peaceful and practical solution. Of course, diplomacy has a way of merely suspending warfare or reserving it for another day doesn't it? If we only find that one perfect gift, our enemies will behave and love us, right?

In the end, you fight for what you are.
 
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So...just end it? Pick up our toys and go home and our enemies will just respect us for it and live out their remainder days in peace and harmony over a cold Coca~Cola? You forget who started it. I doubt they are willing to play nice.

See, the problem with being an American is that we seem to talk ourselves into more blood shed than we have to by pretending that matters "aren't our business" or that every situation has a peaceful and practical solution. Of course, diplomacy has a way of merely suspending warfare or reserving it for another day doesn't it? If we only find that one perfect gift, our enemies will behave and love us, right?

In the end, you fight for what you are.

ok, i'll bite
what are we?
 
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