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Thread: Army discharges don't ask critic who told

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    Re: Army discharges don't ask critic who told

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    They were fighting for what they believed was a good cause. Many could have cared less whether slavery was legal or not, but they didn't like the idea of a strong central government. I don't think they were any more or less honorable than those soldiers fighting for the Union. They were just fighting to maintain their ideals. I personally disagree with their beliefs, for the most part (although there were some unfair taxes imposed on the South prior to the Civil War that I don't agree with), I still don't believe they were fools.
    Yeah, some, but more people than not wanted to keep slavery in tact. And more people in the confederacy than not were racist. To fight for an institution that promoted slavery, is still wrong. No matter what you have rationalized in your head as another reason to fight for it. Yeah, they believed in what they were fighting for, but that doesn't make them honorable. They were misguided fools, no matter how you want to paint it.

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    Re: Army discharges don't ask critic who told

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    Yeah, some, but more people than not wanted to keep slavery in tact. And more people in the confederacy than not were racist. To fight for an institution that promoted slavery, is still wrong. No matter what you have rationalized in your head as another reason to fight for it. Yeah, they believed in what they were fighting for, but that doesn't make them honorable. They were misguided fools, no matter how you want to paint it.
    Slavery was perfectly legal in the US and the north was filled with racists. Racism was a fact of life on both sides with the north's solution was to ship the former black slaves back to Africa.

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    Re: Army discharges don't ask critic who told

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    Yeah, some, but more people than not wanted to keep slavery in tact. And more people in the confederacy than not were racist. To fight for an institution that promoted slavery, is still wrong. No matter what you have rationalized in your head as another reason to fight for it. Yeah, they believed in what they were fighting for, but that doesn't make them honorable. They were misguided fools, no matter how you want to paint it.
    I don't agree, on either point, because most didn't believe they were fighting to maintain slavery. Also, racism was no more prevalent in the South than it was in the North. It got to its worst in the South after the war, when the former slave owners were trying to deflect anger off of themselves and onto others. Those plantation owners figured if they turned the poor and working class whites against the newly freed slaves, that everyone would forget their part in the conflict at all and they could even use the fighting to their advantage when hiring people to work those plantations. They could even point to the North and its own problems with conflicts about race and available jobs. Racism actually got worse after the war, rather than prior to it. Especially where the Southerners who hadn't owned slaves were concerned.

    And, as I said, Union soldiers were no more or less honorable in the Civil War than the Confederate soldiers. Many of the Union soldiers were fighting because they were either drafted or they wanted a paycheck. Most could care less what they were actually fighting for. (Obviously not true concerning those who were former slaves)
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    Re: Army discharges don't ask critic who told

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I support DADT. Anyone who doesn't is a hypocrite.
    I support repeal of DADT. Anyone who doesn't is a hypocrite.

    So many wrong things in this thread, I almost don't know where to begin. First off, the only way repealing DADT would cause an increase in sexual harassment cases is if gays are more likely to sexually harass some one. Good luck finding evidence to prove that.

    Next, sodomy is a red herring. It is very rare for gays to be discharged for sodomy, since it is much harder to prove. Most DADT discharges are for saying one is gay. Next most common, engaging in hand holding/kissing of some one of the same sex. Sodomy requires being caught in the act, which means that it is in barracks, on ship, on some military installation, etc., so the person has already screwed up, since sex of any sort is not allowed.

    Third, the whole commander asking thing is stupid. Right now, under DADT, a commander cannot ask, ever, if a soldier is gay. During a DADT investigation, a soldier can be asked if they said they where gay, engaged in gay activities, are married to some one of the same sex, but they cannot be asked "are you gay". This is related to another mistaken comment in this thread...being gay is not against the rules in the military now. You cannot be discharged for being gay, you can be discharged for doing something to admit you are gay, such as telling, engaging in homosexual acts, or getting married to some one of the same sex. It is not allowed for commanders to ask some one's orientation, and the soldier, while they cannot use such blunt language, can in essence tell that officer to go to hell, it's none of their business.
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    Re: Army discharges don't ask critic who told

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Actually, it's not. Have you spent time in a fighting position with a gay soldier? Have you spent time in a fighting position with any soldier? Again, be honest.
    Actually it is. Of course if you want to limit everyone to discussing only issues that they have actual experience with, unless you are gay, you are not qualified to discuss what it is like to be gay in the military, how a gay person might act or be treated, or how they would react in some of the scenarios that you have presented. Further, unless you have served with an openly gay soldier or officer, anything you would say about THOSE scenarios is also irrelevant as you have no actual experience with them. See how this works? Drop the "I know because I was in the military" crap, or you'll get beaten by demonstrating that you have NOT experienced the scenarios that you have been discussing.
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    Re: Army discharges don't ask critic who told

    Moderator's Warning:
    Army discharges don't ask critic who toldFolks, cease the personal attacks and remember this thread is about DADT, not the Civil War.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Army discharges don't ask critic who told

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Third, the whole commander asking thing is stupid. Right now, under DADT, a commander cannot ask, ever, if a soldier is gay. During a DADT investigation, a soldier can be asked if they said they where gay, engaged in gay activities, are married to some one of the same sex, but they cannot be asked "are you gay". This is related to another mistaken comment in this thread...being gay is not against the rules in the military now. You cannot be discharged for being gay, you can be discharged for doing something to admit you are gay, such as telling, engaging in homosexual acts, or getting married to some one of the same sex. It is not allowed for commanders to ask some one's orientation, and the soldier, while they cannot use such blunt language, can in essence tell that officer to go to hell, it's none of their business.
    That's a very subtle distinction that I didn't know about. Thanks.

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    Re: Army discharges don't ask critic who told

    We should let gays serve in the militray. But we have to make sure we segregate them like we did with the blacks during ww2. That woulden't demoralize our current straight troops, and it would benefit to our military in terms of populace and production.
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    Re: Army discharges don't ask critic who told

    Quote Originally Posted by LimeLight View Post
    We should let gays serve in the militray. But we have to make sure we segregate them like we did with the blacks during ww2. That woulden't demoralize our current straight troops, and it would benefit to our military in terms of populace and production.
    How do you think a segregation would work? After repealing DADT and the sodomy rules, it wouldn't be required that people revealed their sexuality, it would just be an option. In fact, it would probably be heavily encouraged that everyone avoid talking about their sex lives on duty as much as possible, no matter what their sexuality actually is.

    And what benefit could it have to morale? This would discourage actual teamwork and unity. And, not all straight troops care if they serve with a homosexual. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that most could care less. Even some now, who are adamant about maintaining DADT, are more afraid of change. They don't really know what will happen, they are just afraid that it might be bad because it isn't what they are used to. Most likely, once they see that their life didn't change that much, they will get over it and move on.
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    Re: Army discharges don't ask critic who told

    Quote Originally Posted by LimeLight View Post
    We should let gays serve in the militray. But we have to make sure we segregate them like we did with the blacks during ww2. That woulden't demoralize our current straight troops, and it would benefit to our military in terms of populace and production.
    What about bisexuals?
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