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Thread: Senate Democrats abandon comprehensive climate bill

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    Re: Senate Democrats abandon comprehensive climate bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    You should take another look. The first graph is of solar proxies. The bottom half is in fact sunspots. The top half conveniently stops its long-term trend line around 1980. Exactly the same place that every other skeptic likes to cut it off.
    Didn't you know ???? That's the "trick" to hide global warming. Very similar to the alarmist trick mentioned in the emails to stop temperature trend graphs of tree proxies in the 1970s because trees inconveniently forgot how to tell the temperture properly.

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





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    Re: Senate Democrats abandon comprehensive climate bill

    Quote Originally Posted by BCR View Post
    that has nothing to do what I was getting at.



    Correlation does not show causation.... explain the increase in temps in Greenland before the industrial revolution.
    There is no such thing as a “Natural Born Dual-Citizen“.

    Originally Posted by PogueMoran
    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

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    Re: Senate Democrats abandon comprehensive climate bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    A very direct correlation....



    The History of Greenland - ExploreNorth

    Oh hey it's the medieval warm period trope again. Crunch, you're doing what skeptics always do. Spam links to dodgy information in hopes that quantity will win over quality. It takes longer to debunk these claims than it does to make them.

    There was a warmer period 1000 years ago. Greenland was especially warm. This is essentially cherry-picking data from Greenland to show as warm a temperature as possible. This trope started because of this graph:

    It was one of the earlier attempts to start temperature reconstructions for periods long before the instrumental record, known as a "temperature proxy." It was more of a proof of concept, and the data came entirely from northern Europe, mostly from England.

    However, the temperature proxies have expanded to other methods and to cover the globe. Now we get this:



    The "medieval warm period" was mainly a regional effect. The earth was relatively warm at the time, and temperature did decrease after that, but it wasn't as drastic as the Greenland trope would lead you to believe.

    Besides, just because the earth has changed temperature without man's input doesn't mean man's input is incapable of causing temperature. That would be like saying people got lung cancer before the discovery of tobacco, therefore tobacco can't possibly cause lung cancer!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Didn't you know ???? That's the "trick" to hide global warming. Very similar to the alarmist trick mentioned in the emails to stop temperature trend graphs of tree proxies in the 1970s because trees inconveniently forgot how to tell the temperture properly.
    What? No. That's not the context of the "trick" statement at all. The guys who wrote that email were not working at all with solar measurements. And the trees didn't "forget" how to tell temperature. After 1970's trees in the high northern latitudes diverge from the known temperature record. Other regions and other periods match fine. The reason for the divergence in one dataset is not known for certain, but there are several theories and many papers that discuss it.

    Basically, everything you just wrote is completely wrong.
    Last edited by Deuce; 07-23-10 at 03:38 PM.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Senate Democrats abandon comprehensive climate bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Oh hey it's the medieval warm period trope again. Crunch, you're doing what skeptics always do. Spam links to dodgy information in hopes that quantity will win over quality. It takes longer to debunk these claims than it does to make them.

    There was a warmer period 1000 years ago. Greenland was especially warm. This is essentially cherry-picking data from Greenland to show as warm a temperature as possible. This trope started because of this graph:

    It was one of the earlier attempts to start temperature reconstructions for periods long before the instrumental record, known as a "temperature proxy." It was more of a proof of concept, and the data came entirely from northern Europe, mostly from England.

    However, the temperature proxies have expanded to other methods and to cover the globe. Now we get this:



    The "medieval warm period" was mainly a regional effect. The earth was relatively warm at the time, and temperature did decrease after that, but it wasn't as drastic as the Greenland trope would lead you to believe.

    Besides, just because the earth has changed temperature without man's input doesn't mean man's input is incapable of causing temperature. That would be like saying people got lung cancer before the discovery of tobacco, therefore tobacco can't possibly cause lung cancer!



    What? No. That's not the context of the "trick" statement at all. The guys who wrote that email were not working at all with solar measurements. And the trees didn't "forget" how to tell temperature. After 1970's trees in the high northern latitudes diverge from the known temperature record. Other regions and other periods match fine. The reason for the divergence in one dataset is not known for certain, but there are several theories and many papers that discuss it.

    Basically, everything you just wrote is completely wrong.


    There is no such thing as a “Natural Born Dual-Citizen“.

    Originally Posted by PogueMoran
    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

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    Re: Senate Democrats abandon comprehensive climate bill

    The Medieval Warm Period is the answer to your question.

    Despite substantial uncertainties, especially for the period prior to 1600 when data are scarce, the warmest period prior to the 20th century very likely occurred between 950 and 1100, but temperatures were probably between 0.1°C and 0.2°C below the 1961 to 1990 mean and significantly below the level shown by instrumental data after 1980. The heterogeneous nature of climate during the ‘Medieval Warm Period’ is illustrated by the wide spread of values exhibited by the individual records.[12]
    Medieval Warm Period - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Re: Senate Democrats abandon comprehensive climate bill

    What? No. That's not the context of the "trick" statement at all. The guys who wrote that email were not working at all with solar measurements. And the trees didn't "forget" how to tell temperature. After 1970's trees in the high northern latitudes diverge from the known temperature record. Other regions and other periods match fine. The reason for the divergence in one dataset is not known for certain, but there are several theories and many papers that discuss it.

    Basically, everything you just wrote is completely wrong.
    Lousy attempt at a dodge. If it was only one proxie dataset, why is the graph of it included in all the IPCC reports??? The IPCC obviosly thought it was an important dataset, even though they hid that it's line ended 20 years ago.

    I didn't say the "trick" had anything to do with sunspots. The trick was to suddenly end a line of data because th data became inconvenient.

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





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    Re: Senate Democrats abandon comprehensive climate bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post


    Again, the fact that climate can change naturally does not mean man can't also change it. Is this really that hard for you to understand? There are many different climate forcings. Greenhouse gases are one of them. Also, a lot of those rapid changes you see on that chart coincide with mass-extinction events.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Senate Democrats abandon comprehensive climate bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Lousy attempt at a dodge. If it was only one proxie dataset, why is the graph of it included in all the IPCC reports??? The IPCC obviosly thought it was an important dataset, even though they hid that it's line ended 20 years ago.

    I didn't say the "trick" had anything to do with sunspots. The trick was to suddenly end a line of data because th data became inconvenient.
    I misunderstood your statement, then. The "trick" that "hid the decline" wasn't referring to deception, anyway. "Trick" in that context means "neat" or "clever," and the decline was one dataset (among many) of temperaure reconstructions from trees after 1970, not the actual temperature. The actual temperature increased during that period. Besides, the very scientists making those graphs have published papers discussing the deviation from known temperatures, if there's some sort of conspiracy that's not a very good way to hide it.
    Even if you ignore tree-ring data entirely we still have several other temperature proxies.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Senate Democrats abandon comprehensive climate bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Some day we might figure out that some things are more important than money.
    America has unfortunately made its choice. I think it is up to individuals now to prepare for the worst. You know that the rich people are. They don't have to worry because they have the resources as their disposal for a backup plan. It's going to be the rest of us who are screwed.

    Americans wonder why the world is increasingly unwilling to turn to it for leadership. Look no further.

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    Re: Senate Democrats abandon comprehensive climate bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Again, the fact that climate can change naturally does not mean man can't also change it. Is this really that hard for you to understand? There are many different climate forcings. Greenhouse gases are one of them. Also, a lot of those rapid changes you see on that chart coincide with mass-extinction events.
    Mass-extinction event?.... there was more than 1, like 65 million years ago?
    There is no such thing as a “Natural Born Dual-Citizen“.

    Originally Posted by PogueMoran
    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

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