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Thread: Palin sparks Twitter fight on mosque

  1. #81
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    Re: Palin sparks Twitter fight on mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Fair enough. I've always liked your posts even though I sometimes disagree with you. But in general, do you think it is ok to use societal or political pressure to infringe or prevent someone from exercising a right when no legal options are left? I think this is an interesting question, and one which was born naturally from the topic at hand.
    Here's the thing...

    I don't think you have a "Right" to build your church wherever you like. You have a right, as does every other citizen, to build a building that fits within the legal zoning codes. People have a right to protest that if they wish.

    Building a mosque or a church is not free exercising the right in regards to freedom of worship.

    So for me the question would be this. If a pizza place was being built, would it be able to be protested? Yes. If it was a gun range being built, would it be able to be protested? Yes. If it was an apartment complex being built, would it be able to be protested? Yes. If it was a pool, a YMCA, or a homeless shelter could it be protested? Yes. Then I see no reason why a church or mosque can't be protested.

    Unless these people are somehow keeping these individuals from attending another mosque, praying at their home, etc, to me its not infringing on anyones right to worship.

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    Re: Palin sparks Twitter fight on mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Fair enough. I've always liked your posts even though I sometimes disagree with you. But in general, do you think it is ok to use societal or political pressure to infringe or prevent someone from exercising a right when no legal options are left? I think this is an interesting question, and one which was born naturally from the topic at hand.
    Yeah its called free speech. And public outcry against and social maneuvering to attempt to reverse a really provocative decision is perfectly acceptable. If society has a certain synergy over a topic that leads it to organized use of the market, protest, and public displays of outrage without breaking the law or infringing on the Constitution, it shows a certain cohesion that I find promising for America.

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    Re: Palin sparks Twitter fight on mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    In all fairness, though, the mosque is 2 blocks away from the WTC. That's hardly right next door.
    Two blocks is practically on top of it.

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    Re: Palin sparks Twitter fight on mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Two blocks is practically on top of it.
    So is the entire island of Manhattan off-limits to mosques now, or just the financial district?

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    Re: Palin sparks Twitter fight on mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Here's the thing...

    I don't think you have a "Right" to build your church wherever you like. You have a right, as does every other citizen, to build a building that fits within the legal zoning codes. People have a right to protest that if they wish.

    Building a mosque or a church is not free exercising the right in regards to freedom of worship.
    But it is in terms of Freedom of Religion which includes expression and the ability to build houses of worship. It's also well in accordance to property rights as well. But as a taken, let's just go with property and making a building within the letter of the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    So for me the question would be this. If a pizza place was being built, would it be able to be protested? Yes. If it was a gun range being built, would it be able to be protested? Yes. If it was an apartment complex being built, would it be able to be protested? Yes. If it was a pool, a YMCA, or a homeless shelter could it be protested? Yes. Then I see no reason why a church or mosque can't be protested.

    Unless these people are somehow keeping these individuals from attending another mosque, praying at their home, etc, to me its not infringing on anyones right to worship.
    Protest is protest, it's fine. But the question went beyond protest to actual action. Is it ok to use societal and/or political pressures to prevent an individual from exercising a right where there is no legal recourse to infringe upon said exercise.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Palin sparks Twitter fight on mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    So is the entire island of Manhattan off-limits to mosques now, or just the financial district?
    I didn't say it was off limits. But it should not be downplayed as being a hike away from what was a smoldering pile of rubble. It's practically on top of it and shows a little insensitivity on the parts of these Muslim groups building it.

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    Re: Palin sparks Twitter fight on mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    But it is in terms of Freedom of Religion which includes expression and the ability to build houses of worship.
    No it's not. There's no right to build freely anywhere in the Constitution.

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    Re: Palin sparks Twitter fight on mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    No it's not. There's no right to build freely anywhere in the Constitution.
    The constitution A) Doesn't limit the People, it limits the government. B) Doesn't list all the rights an individual has, C) this falls completely under property rights.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #89
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    Re: Palin sparks Twitter fight on mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Those are forms of social and political intimidation. And you damned well seem to be supporting it. Reality or no, it's not a practice which can be endorsed. Just because it happens doesn't mean we say "oh well". If we believe in the foundation of this country and the purpose of government as the founders envisioned, then we cannot accept this type of intimidation. We are meant to protect and proliferate the rights and liberties of the individual, not infringe and curtail them. There is nothing legitimate anyone can do to stop them. There is nothing just that anyone can do to stop them. Those trying to stop them do so unjustly and illegitimately.
    You're accusations about me personally are tiring and boring. Legitimate in your view or not, intimidation ornot, infringement or not - it's always been this way. This is who humans are. You don't like something, you rally support, get petitions, call your congressman, show up at local town hall meetings. What you call "infringement" and "intimidation" I call Democracy and society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Where does it say anywhere I have to respect anything or anyone? I don't. I don't have to respect the community.
    That's totally up to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The community MUST acknowledge my rights and liberties; that's the way it goes. Communities don't have rights, only individuals possess rights. It's not the individual which must respect the community, it's the other way around.
    Until that community makes your life a living hell and force you to move away. You might be in the "right" but miserable in the process. Again, that's your choice. There's a balance off societal and political freedoms. Claiming and forcing society to conform to you is obtuse and naive. Society does not have to respect you either. Setting yourself or your views as "me vs. them" will inevitably make you the loser. This mosque may be built --- that does not mean it will be occupied or stay there very long. Win the battle - lose the war.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  10. #90
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    Re: Palin sparks Twitter fight on mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The constitution A) Doesn't limit the People, it limits the government. B) Doesn't list all the rights an individual has, C) this falls completely under property rights.
    A) I understand that entirely so you don't need to keep repeating this line. And thank you for not calling me a fascist, at least.

    B) It lists enough of them positively to support the fact that there is NO right to build freely anywhere you want.

    C) Then stop making an argument about freedom of religion if you want to make an argument about property rights.

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