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Thread: Traffic Cameras Worldwide Go Haywire

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    Traffic Cameras Worldwide Go Haywire

    Speed cameras in California, Florida and Australia are not living up to their image of providing infallible evidence of traffic crimes. To the contrary, officials must find clever excuses to cover for the mistakes that are uncovered with increasing frequency.

    In Hallandale, Florida, the private firm American Traffic Solutions mailed a $125 ticket to Phil Kodroff accusing his car of "running a red light" at the intersection of Federal Highway and Hallandale Beach Boulevard on May 22. The Fort Lauderdale Sun Sentinel reported that Kodroff's vehicle committed this crime at the speed of 0 MPH.

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    Re: Traffic Cameras Worldwide Go Haywire

    Man, I read the thread title and was hoping to see a bunch of cameras spinning wildly and recording images of the apocalypse.

    "Traffic cameras don't function up to reasonable standards" is way less interesting than what I had in my head!
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Traffic Cameras Worldwide Go Haywire

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Man, I read the thread title and was hoping to see a bunch of cameras spinning wildly and recording images of the apocalypse.

    "Traffic cameras don't function up to reasonable standards" is way less interesting than what I had in my head!
    Yeah the title is somewhat misleading, but I didn't write it.

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    Re: Traffic Cameras Worldwide Go Haywire

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Yeah the title is somewhat misleading, but I didn't write it.
    More on-topic, if the cameras aren't functioning properly they should be removed. But somehow I suspect the revenue they generate will push officials to ignore the problems.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Traffic Cameras Worldwide Go Haywire

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    More on-topic, if the cameras aren't functioning properly they should be removed. But somehow I suspect the revenue they generate will push officials to ignore the problems.
    Oh I agree with that. I'm of the opinion that they should be removed entirely. It's hard to fulfill the Constitutional requirement under the Sixth Amendment of the ability to face your accusor when it's an inanimate object. That defense has been used successfully here in Missouri and the court has no choice but to find for the defendent.

    In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

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    Re: Traffic Cameras Worldwide Go Haywire

    Speed cameras have saved a lot of lives. No they aren't perfect, but they're better than nothing.

    My hometown had upwards of several hundred accidents a month at intersections and usually one or two fatalities every couple weeks. Speed cameras were installed about two years ago and accidents dropped to less than a few dozen a month and we've had less than 2 fatalities in a period of six months. My graduation class in high school lost 83 students over four years. Four were suicides, eight were drug overdoses, ten were medical or accidents, and the remaining fatalities were car accidents. This last graduation class lost only 23 students through their four years. Six suicides, 12 drug overdoses, nine medical or accidental deaths, with the rest being car accidents.

    This is evidence enough for me to support traffic cameras.
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    Re: Traffic Cameras Worldwide Go Haywire

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Oh I agree with that. I'm of the opinion that they should be removed entirely. It's hard to fulfill the Constitutional requirement under the Sixth Amendment of the ability to face your accusor when it's an inanimate object. That defense has been used successfully here in Missouri and the court has no choice but to find for the defendent.

    In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
    Surely 'the accusor' is whoever set those cameras up and uses them to gather evidence of speeding? Cameras do the evidence-recording, not the accusing...
    The truth may be out there, but lies are in your head. ~Terry Pratchett

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    Re: Traffic Cameras Worldwide Go Haywire

    I'm curious as to how these are allowed in some states.

    It seems to violate a number of key Constitutional provisions.

    First, how do you confront your accuser? How can you cross examine a camera?

    Second, how can you ticket a person for something a car did? In other words, how do you know someone else wasn't driving the car at the time?

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    Re: Traffic Cameras Worldwide Go Haywire

    Quote Originally Posted by iangb View Post
    Surely 'the accusor' is whoever set those cameras up and uses them to gather evidence of speeding? Cameras do the evidence-recording, not the accusing...
    As mentioned above, the "right to face accusor" defense actually worked in several states for a while. Some states have already "fixed" that "loophole" with a quick change to their laws, I suppose naming the person processing the camera records as the accusor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    I'm curious as to how these are allowed in some states.

    It seems to violate a number of key Constitutional provisions.

    First, how do you confront your accuser? How can you cross examine a camera?

    Second, how can you ticket a person for something a car did? In other words, how do you know someone else wasn't driving the car at the time?
    You get the camera operator (or whatever you call them) to come to court with the photos that show you in the intersection with the red light or speeding or whatever. Of course, those guys are probably even less motivated to go to court than the police officers, so just showing up to your court date give you a good shot at having the ticket dropped.

    Then again, probably 99% of the people caught by these cameras actually were breaking the law...so.. you know. There's that.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Traffic Cameras Worldwide Go Haywire

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    As mentioned above, the "right to face accusor" defense actually worked in several states for a while. Some states have already "fixed" that "loophole" with a quick change to their laws, I suppose naming the person processing the camera records as the accusor.
    I know that in Missouri, the legislature mandated that all red light cameras must have a 15 second yellow signal statewide and that if you're within 50 feet a traffic light that you can safely go through it when it's yellow without penalty in order to prevent the accidents that was on the rise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    You get the camera operator (or whatever you call them) to come to court with the photos that show you in the intersection with the red light or speeding or whatever. Of course, those guys are probably even less motivated to go to court than the police officers, so just showing up to your court date give you a good shot at having the ticket dropped.

    Then again, probably 99% of the people caught by these cameras actually were breaking the law...so.. you know. There's that.
    Except, the guy processing the photo didn't witness the event and under the rules of evidence what he sees is just hearsay and not admissible in court.. He's only processing what the camera saw. Many of the red light cameras just take pictures of the front of the car and rear license plate. The resolution of the photos make it impossible to determine who was behind the wheel. I know because when I worked as a mobile supervisor my work got a ticket for running a red light from a red light camera and the ticket just had pictures of the front of the car and the rear license plate. Fortunately, I was able to prove that it wasn't my ticket because I was off that night.

    Proof that 99% of the people were breaking the law.
    Last edited by The_Patriot; 07-19-10 at 08:37 PM.

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