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Thread: Traffic Cameras Worldwide Go Haywire

  1. #11
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    Re: Traffic Cameras Worldwide Go Haywire

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Except, the guy processing the photo didn't witness the event and under the rules of evidence what he sees is just hearsay and not admissible in court.. He's only processing what the camera saw. Many of the red light cameras just take pictures of the front of the car and rear license plate. The resolution of the photos make it impossible to determine who was behind the wheel. I know because when I worked as a mobile supervisor my work got a ticket for running a red light from a red light camera and the ticket just had pictures of the front of the car and the rear license plate. Fortunately, I was able to prove that it wasn't my ticket because I was off that night.
    In the UK, a letter is sent to the vehicle owner asking who was driving it at the time. I have a feeling that contradicts the 5th, but I've never been a fan of Constitutionality anyway... I don't know how it would work in the US; I would guess that it's the same but the owner is presumed guilty unless he names someone else as driver.

    The organisation who sets up the camera and develops the photo (though I'd guess they're all digital these days) are said to be viewing the scene of the crime by proxy. Think of it as a webcam with an incredibly long delay/lag. It can't count as heresay, because it's documented and photographically proven; heresay is unprovable (by the heresayer, at least).
    The truth may be out there, but lies are in your head. ~Terry Pratchett

  2. #12
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    Re: Traffic Cameras Worldwide Go Haywire

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite View Post
    Speed cameras have saved a lot of lives. No they aren't perfect, but they're better than nothing.

    My hometown had upwards of several hundred accidents a month at intersections and usually one or two fatalities every couple weeks. Speed cameras were installed about two years ago and accidents dropped to less than a few dozen a month and we've had less than 2 fatalities in a period of six months. My graduation class in high school lost 83 students over four years. Four were suicides, eight were drug overdoses, ten were medical or accidents, and the remaining fatalities were car accidents. This last graduation class lost only 23 students through their four years. Six suicides, 12 drug overdoses, nine medical or accidental deaths, with the rest being car accidents.

    This is evidence enough for me to support traffic cameras.
    Statistics by several state Department of Transportion and other government agencies disagree with you. Virginia Department of Transportation 2007 Report and North Carolina Urban Transportation Institute 2004 Study. These two are just the tip of the iceberg and there are more studies out there that show that accidents increased due to red light cameras.

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    Re: Traffic Cameras Worldwide Go Haywire

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Statistics by several state Department of Transportion and other government agencies disagree with you. Virginia Department of Transportation 2007 Report and North Carolina Urban Transportation Institute 2004 Study. These two are just the tip of the iceberg and there are more studies out there that show that accidents increased due to red light cameras.
    Neither of these studies explain why.
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    Re: Traffic Cameras Worldwide Go Haywire

    Quote Originally Posted by iangb View Post
    In the UK, a letter is sent to the vehicle owner asking who was driving it at the time. I have a feeling that contradicts the 5th, but I've never been a fan of Constitutionality anyway... I don't know how it would work in the US; I would guess that it's the same but the owner is presumed guilty unless he names someone else as driver.

    The organisation who sets up the camera and develops the photo (though I'd guess they're all digital these days) are said to be viewing the scene of the crime by proxy. Think of it as a webcam with an incredibly long delay/lag. It can't count as heresay, because it's documented and photographically proven; heresay is unprovable (by the heresayer, at least).
    In Pennsylvania at least (where I practice) it wouldn't be admitted.

    In fact, I just had a similar case. The officer had a video of the arrest on his dashboard for a DUI case. Then the officer died in a shoot out before the trial. I argued that the video was now inadmissible -- how could I cross examine a video? And besides, how can a silent video testify that my client smelled drunk, had slurred speech, and so on?

    Well, the judge didn't want to dishonor the heroic cop (I think) and said he'd let it in, despite all the research I had saying it couldn't be admitted. Then, just before the trial, we worked out a deal where they gave my client a lesser sentence and he took it. (They knew they wouldn't win the appeal, I'm sure)

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    Re: Traffic Cameras Worldwide Go Haywire

    Quote Originally Posted by iangb View Post
    In the UK, a letter is sent to the vehicle owner asking who was driving it at the time. I have a feeling that contradicts the 5th, but I've never been a fan of Constitutionality anyway... I don't know how it would work in the US; I would guess that it's the same but the owner is presumed guilty unless he names someone else as driver.

    The organisation who sets up the camera and develops the photo (though I'd guess they're all digital these days) are said to be viewing the scene of the crime by proxy. Think of it as a webcam with an incredibly long delay/lag. It can't count as heresay, because it's documented and photographically proven; heresay is unprovable (by the heresayer, at least).
    In that instance, it would be a violation of a person's Fifth Amendment protected right to not inciminate himself. Here, the state, has to prove that you were behind the wheel when the picture was taken.

    If the photo processor claims that it was you driving the car without using the photo evidence then that would be hearsay. Also, photo processors are not trained in the field of forensic study and their expertise is questionable regarding it.

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    Re: Traffic Cameras Worldwide Go Haywire

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite View Post
    Neither of these studies explain why.
    The reason why is simple, drivers are willing to slam on the brakes and unintentionally causing an accident then to risk running a red light then getting a ticket. Accidents increase due to the shortness of the yellow light in order to maximize revenue and traffic congestion at the the time. Most accidents of this type happen on heavily traveled roads.

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    Re: Traffic Cameras Worldwide Go Haywire

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    In that instance, it would be a violation of a person's Fifth Amendment protected right to not inciminate himself. Here, the state, has to prove that you were behind the wheel when the picture was taken.

    If the photo processor claims that it was you driving the car without using the photo evidence then that would be hearsay. Also, photo processors are not trained in the field of forensic study and their expertise is questionable regarding it.
    That's why the bring the photos to the court. Photographs are evidence, otherwise security cameras wouldn't be particularly useful anywhere!
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Traffic Cameras Worldwide Go Haywire

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    The reason why is simple, drivers are willing to slam on the brakes and unintentionally causing an accident then to risk running a red light then getting a ticket. Accidents increase due to the shortness of the yellow light in order to maximize revenue and traffic congestion at the the time. Most accidents of this type happen on heavily traveled roads.
    Is service time of the units taken into account?
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    Re: Traffic Cameras Worldwide Go Haywire

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    That's why the bring the photos to the court. Photographs are evidence, otherwise security cameras wouldn't be particularly useful anywhere!
    They do bring the photos to court, but since the state is relying upon an inanimate object to report breaking the law then the defendent must be able to face his accusor. Can you cross examine an inanimate object? Can the inanimate object prove that you were behind the wheel at the time the pictures were taken? The answer to both of those questions is no. The guy doing the processing isn't trained in law nor in forensic science and wasn't there when the pictures were taken. The article has plenty of examples of where the processors show a lack of knowledge of the law and processed tickets against innocent people.
    Last edited by The_Patriot; 07-19-10 at 08:59 PM.

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    Re: Traffic Cameras Worldwide Go Haywire

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite View Post
    Is service time of the units taken into account?
    The service time isn't applicable, since the presence of a red light traffic camera, functioning or not, causes people to slam on their brakes to avoid getting a red light ticket. It's human nature to avoid a penalty.

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