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Thread: Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

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    Re: Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Your personal animosity toward the Church aside, you couldn't be more incorrect about the above statement. If we do not allow anger to cloud our understanding of the issue, then it becomes clear that we are not talking about the "equality" of women, which the Church unequivocally recognizes. The Catholic Church does not "think that women are not fully and completely equal," far from it. A priest is not any more or less "equal" in the eyes of God, merely a holder of a particular sacramental position. The prohibition against women is just a question of liturgical tradition, not based on any idea of spiritual inferiority. At the end of the day, all people, clergy and laity, men and women, are equally sinners in the eyes of God, and equally loved by God.
    If they cannot hold that sacramental position, and thus cannot ever achieve popehood, they are something other than fully and completely equal.

    The problem is not my anger, it's your understanding of what "fully and completely' really means.
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 07-16-10 at 11:13 AM.
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    Re: Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

    What is absolutely fascinating, though, is everyone "Oh no!" reactions to what the Catholic Church does.

    Is it really shocking that they don't respect or value women?
    is it really shocking that they don't really hold their priests up to the standard of morality which they expect their believers to follow?

    None of this is shocking - it's appalling - but not shocking. The Catholic Church has been like this for a *very* long time.
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    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
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    Re: Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    You made the choice to marry a Roman Catholic with the knowledge, presumably, that as a Catholic, your wife is obligated to raise her children Catholic. My wife is Buddhist, and this is something we talked about in depth at the pre-Cana conference we were required to attend prior to marriage in the Church. You knew this, yet you still chose to marry her. So, while you are not Catholic and as such are not obligated to believe what our Church teaches us through the guidence of the Holy Spirit, but if you wife wishes to remain a communicant Catholic, then she is required to follow the teachings of the Church, whether you agree with them or not.
    She isn't required to do ****. She chooses to do it.

    Much like I chose too marry her despite her Catholicism.
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    Re: Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    There is marriage in the eyes of the Church and marriage in the eyes of the law. The former may only matter to members of the same Church, but the law applies to all of us and we all have an equal stake in it.
    Right. But the latter should not affect the population one iota, other than granting the population more equal rights. The biggest complain I hear when it comes to this issue is many say it devalues hetero marriage. If a church decided to marry gays or not, it's at the discretion of the religion and parishioners... not the governent.
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

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    Re: Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    You're a non-religious person, right?

    A belief in God is a matter of faith, supported by fact.
    That is the grey area. "Fact" (or scripture) can be construed in many different ways. The same verse can mean different things to different people/religions. So who is right?
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

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    Re: Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    You're a non-religious person, right?

    A belief in God is a matter of faith, supported by fact. For that reason, the no-God squad cannot convince a believer that there is no God because, they can't speak the language.

    For the same reason, no one is going to convince YOU that there is a God, because you doesn't understand the language of faith. It is bs to you.
    Kori has faith.
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    Re: Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    You're a non-religious person, right?
    No, I am not. I am deeply religious and both my worldview and my moral values are derived primarily from my faith. It is for this reason that I cannot fathom how a person can belong to a religion whose moral values they are opposed to.

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    A belief in God is a matter of faith, supported by fact. For that reason, the no-God squad cannot convince a believer that there is no God because, they can't speak the language.

    For the same reason, no one is going to convince YOU that there is a God, because you doesn't understand the language of faith. It is bs to you.
    Nothing in my statement pertains to a belief in God. It pertains wholly to belief in Church doctrine and the proper worship of God; if a person believes that Church doctrine is false, how can they not believe that the Church itself is false? How can a Church that follows false doctrine lead a person to a true relationship with God?

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    Re: Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    How can a Church that follows false doctrine lead a person to a true relationship with God?
    Exactly. My entire problem with organized religion, and the Catholic faith in particular.

    Poor people who ate meat on a Friday and died before they had confession. Before they changed that doctrine, all those people went to hell.

    Poor divorced Catholics who remarried. To hell they go....unless, of course, they receive Special Dispensation which translates to around ten grand.

    Poor the rest of us who can't receive communion in their church because we aren't Catholic. God invites me to his communion table...not the Catholic Church.

    Poor Catholic priests who can't be married. Pullleeeeze. This had nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the church getting their property when they died.

    The Catholic Church is rife with exclusionary dogma.

    I respect those who call the Catholic Church home and am glad they've found one. But...
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Right. But the latter should not affect the population one iota, other than granting the population more equal rights.
    The law affects everyone. People who are opposed to gay marriage believe that it will affect society negatively, and that the State should not endorse those marriages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    If a church decided to marry gays or not, it's at the discretion of the religion and parishioners... not the governent.
    True. But the argument over gay marriage is largely not whether the church marries gays or not, but whether the government will do so. Just as whether or not the church marries gays is at the discretion of the church and the people who belong to it, whether the government marries gays or not is at the discretion of the government and the people that belong to it-- and we all belong to the same government.

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    Re: Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    If they cannot hold that sacramental position, and thus cannot ever achieve popehood, they are something other than fully and completely equal.

    The problem is not my anger, it's your understanding of what "fully and completely' really means.
    I disagree. You are equivocating your position now. What you said previously is that the Church considers women "unequal in the eyes of God." This is emphatically not the case. There is discrimination in the sacrament of ordination, and your are correct that currently a woman could not ascend to the papacy, but this is an Ecclesiastical inequality. The Ecclesia is not God.

    If you have changed your position then we have no disagreement. Feel free to have whatever anger towards the Church you feel is reasonable. But you are incorrect that the Catholic Church teaches that women are unequal to men "in the eyes of God."
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 07-16-10 at 11:49 AM.

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