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Thread: Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

  1. #111
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    Re: Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    So the Church is defying God by not viewing them as equal?
    Strictly speaking, access to the sacraments isn't about spiritual equality, it is about rules set by the Ecclesia. The rules may be discriminatory and treat people differently, but inequality in receipt of sacraments is not identical to inequality before God. A priest cannot receive the sacrament of marriage after ordination, and a married person cannot receive the sacrament of ordination while married, but this unequal application of the sacraments does not "defy" God. There are theologically persuasive arguments for ordination of women in the Catholic Church, but you are not making one, IT.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 07-16-10 at 07:08 PM.

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    Re: Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    access to the sacraments isn't about spiritual equality
    That's why you keep making strawmen. You want to limit the "fully and completely" equal part of my comment to just "spiritual equality".

    I can see why you would want to do this, but it doesn't help your argument to do it. It makes it an argument against a strawman.
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    Re: Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Strictly speaking, access to the sacraments isn't about spiritual equality, it is about rules set by the Ecclesia. The rules may be discriminatory and treat people differently, but inequality in receipt of sacraments is not identical to inequality before God. A priest cannot receive the sacrament of marriage after ordination, and a married person cannot receive the sacrament of ordination while married, but this unequal application of the sacraments does not "defy" God. There are theologically persuasive arguments for ordination of women in the Catholic Church, but you are not making one, IT.
    Spirits are genderless.

    Man, not God, has arbitrarily decided that it would not be in "divine grace" to have women interpret the Bible for a congregation nor to give the Eucharist.
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    Re: Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Spirits are genderless.

    Man, not God, has arbitrarily decided that it would not be in "divine grace" to have women interpret the Bible for a congregation nor to give the Eucharist.
    That is a much better argument.

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    Re: Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    That is a much better argument.
    But man, by way of the Catholic Church and Pope John Paul II, attributed it to their God by making it an "Infallible" decree that they've not been granted the authority to do so.
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    Re: Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

    Why does God change his mind when talking to the pope and Catholic church? I respect Catholics and their faith, but as a fellow Christian I can't accept their theology or the papacy. To be honest (and no offense to Catholics) I think Catholicism is a stain on Christianity. I support some of what the Catholic church does, but their flip flopping on ideology and their mentality of "you go through us to have a relationship with God" just doesn't sit well with me.
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    Re: Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    But man, by way of the Catholic Church and Pope John Paul II, attributed it to their God by making it an "Infallible" decree that they've not been granted the authority to do so.
    Incorrect. Although it was rested on the infallibility of the Church (not papal infallibility), the commentary to the decree specifically states that "this does not foreclose the possibility that, in the future, the consciousness of the Church might progress to the point where this teaching could be defined as a doctrine to be believed as divinely revealed."

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    Re: Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    To be honest (and no offense to Catholics) I think Catholicism is a stain on Christianity.
    I think that goes a little far, digs. Listen, I'm no fan of the Catholic Church by any stretch of the imaginiation, but Catholicism the religion, as a whole, is not at all a stain on Christianity.

    Catholic Charities, for example, is a phenomenal orginization that has done some great things for people.
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    Re: Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Spirits are genderless.

    Man, not God, has arbitrarily decided that it would not be in "divine grace" to have women interpret the Bible for a congregation nor to give the Eucharist.
    Biblically the issue is actually up for debate and interpretation. Many denominations, not just Catholic, do not ordain women because they believe the Bible opposes it.

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    Re: Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Incorrect. Although it was rested on the infallibility of the Church (not papal infallibility), the commentary to the decree specifically states that "this does not foreclose the possibility that, in the future, the consciousness of the Church might progress to the point where this teaching could be defined as a doctrine to be believed as divinely revealed."
    Let's look at the full quote,shall we?

    "A similar process can be observed in the more recent teaching regarding the doctrine that priestly ordination is reserved only to men. The Supreme Pontiff, while not wishing to proceed to a dogmatic definition, intended to reaffirm that this doctrine is to be held definitively, since, founded on the written Word of God, constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium. As the prior example illustrates, this does not foreclose the possibility that, in the future, the consciousness of the Church might progress to the point where this teaching could be defined as a doctrine to be believed as divinely revealed."

    It's exactly as I said earlier. They left the wording open so that they could pretend that God allowed them to have that authority later if they absolutely had to. Doesn't change the fact that it is attributed to God.

    Next time, use the full quote even though it destroys your argument. It's a more honest debate tactic.
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 07-16-10 at 08:13 PM.
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