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ATF seizes 1,000 guns in East Mesa raid

Seriously though... to my knowlege there is no Federal law limiting how many guns you can own. I know private collectors who literally own hundreds.

It would appear that the man's offense was failing to renew his FFL and continuing to do biz as a gun dealer... but questions remain as to whether any of his actions were actually felonious or even truly illegal.

I've seen enough ATF bullsheet to distrust them as a matter of policy, but given the general lack of solid information I'd have to reserve final judgement until I know more.
 
Seriously though... to my knowlege there is no Federal law limiting how many guns you can own. I know private collectors who literally own hundreds.
Im sure they also have proper paperwork and licensing information for their collection.

It would appear that the man's offense was failing to renew his FFL and continuing to do biz as a gun dealer... but questions remain as to whether any of his actions were actually felonious or even truly illegal.
Again, it's the same principal as building bombs; even if you havent done anything illegal and dont plan to, it's still illegal.
 
Im sure they also have proper paperwork and licensing information for their collection.

Again, it's the same principal as building bombs; even if you havent done anything illegal and dont plan to, it's still illegal.


Ok. Please cite the exact federal laws that the man violated, other than failing to renew FFL while continuing to act as a dealer. Please cite the federal law that says you can't own X number of guns.

As for proper paperwork... in my state you don't have to have ANY paperwork to own a firearm, or 10, or 100. When you buy the thing you fill out the standard form, which (last time I checked) was kept on file by the dealer for 90 days and then supposed to be destroyed.

No cop in my state will ever ask you to show him the paperwork on a gun you own, because, for the possessor, there isn't any.

I don't know where people get the idea that all guns have to be registered and require papers merely to possess. There is no such federal law, and no such state law in many states.
 
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2nd Ammendments Thumpers coming in 3... 2... 1...

Yeah. Those damn 2nd amendment advocates. What next 1st amendment advocates? You should have to register your pencils, computer,religious books, regular books, paper, telephones and other things used to exercise first amendment rights and you should only be limited to only one of those things a month. So what if those things are right.:roll:
 
If I had that many guns, I'd line them all up and connect all their triggers via some sort of complicated string device, and fire them all at the same time.

Bring hearing protection.
 
They were seized because he was selling them without a license. He committed a crime involving those guns, and they were taken as evidence. I've got no problem with it.
 
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If I had that many guns, I'd line them all up and connect all their triggers via some sort of complicated string device, and fire them all at the same time.

Bring hearing protection.

Why, what purpose would that serve?
 
If I had that many guns, I'd line them all up and connect all their triggers via some sort of complicated string device, and fire them all at the same time.

Bring hearing protection.

So what you're saying then, is that you'd fire all of your guns at once?

Would you then proceed to explode into space?
 
federal laws on guns

1) there is no national gun registration save for Class III weapons (machine guns, SBR's etc)

2) an FFL holder can receive firearms in the mail, receive firearms from both residents and non-residents of the state in which they do business and sell in any part of the state where they have a license unless local laws prohibit that. (ie a dealer with a store in cincinnati Ohio can sell in Toledo)

3) an FFL can sell long guns to citizens of adjacent states but can only sell handguns to legal residents of his own state

4) FFL dealers must conduct the instant background check

5) Non dealers can sell their own guns but if they sell more than a few-(this is a jury question) they can be charged with dealing firearms without a license. Federally, private sellers do not have to-and cannot-conduct a background check. However, it is illegal for a private seller to sell anyone a gun who is not a resident of the same state, or is a prohibited person (ie under age, a felon, a fugitive)

6) it is a factual issue at trial whether the person knew or should have known that the person he sold the weapon to is a prohibited person.

7) if a private person buys a gun it is presumed he bought it for resale if he sells it within a day. If he holds it for more than a day and then sells it-it is a presumption (that can be overcome) that the gun was bought for his collection. Thus if you are a private seller at a gun show and someone sells you a colt 45 and you then sell it to another person at the show a couple hours later, you have engaged in an unlicensed act of gun dealing which is illegal

If you have a license and give it up or fail to renew it, you have certain duties as to the 4473 documents you collected in the course of your business.

If you bought guns on your FFL and give up your license and continue to sell the guns, I would argue you are engaged in the impermissible dealing of firearms-especially if you sell several at a time and the prosecutorial guidelines-at least in my district-are consistent with that meaning someone doing that will be charged and the Grand Jury will most likely investigate the activity.
 
If I had that many guns, I'd line them all up and connect all their triggers via some sort of complicated string device, and fire them all at the same time.

Bring hearing protection.

Heh. That sounds like fun. :mrgreen:
 
The government had no right to do this. This man has broken no laws, and it's his Constitutional right to own those guns. No laws were borken, and it was none of the police's business to do this. They need to return the guns, and the cops who did this should have charges pressed against them. It's against the law for our government to do such a thing.
 
The government had no right to do this. This man has broken no laws, and it's his Constitutional right to own those guns. No laws were borken, and it was none of the police's business to do this. They need to return the guns, and the cops who did this should have charges pressed against them. It's against the law for our government to do such a thing.

No he was apparently selling guns with an expired license which apparently is illegal.
 
No he was apparently selling guns with an expired license which apparently is illegal.

more facts are required to determine if you or digsbe is correct.

I will tell you more than a few cops seize guns for the purpose of taking them for their own use.

most people won't hire an attorney and sue the cops over a 500 dollar glock.

I wish more people would-this sort of crap happens alot.
 
The government had no right to do this. This man has broken no laws, and it's his Constitutional right to own those guns. No laws were borken, and it was none of the police's business to do this. They need to return the guns, and the cops who did this should have charges pressed against them. It's against the law for our government to do such a thing.


Actually it is possible that he has violated fed law about too-much-selling-without-an-FFL. That will have to be hashed out in court, and the devil is in the details.

However, I've seen and heard enough, from credible sources, about ATF abuses, bad raids based on faulty info; guns seized then the owner is acquitted but finds it nearly impossible to recover his property, and etc... based on no more info than I presently have, my sympathy is with the citizen until it is proven that he's committed some mala in se.

Odds are that everyone on this forum has unwittingly committed a crime punishable by imprisonment, or even a felony. There are so many thousands laws on the books, and some of them are so broadly or vaguely written (or lacking in common sense), that it is almost impossible to be fully "law abiding" these days.
 
more facts are required to determine if you or digsbe is correct.

I will tell you more than a few cops seize guns for the purpose of taking them for their own use.

most people won't hire an attorney and sue the cops over a 500 dollar glock.

I wish more people would-this sort of crap happens alot.

Well Harry's article says that he sold guns to undercover agents across state borders without a license. And added to that selling guns are a show without license is a no no, but I agree more information is needed, but so far it sounded like the had a legitimate reason to act.
 
Well Harry's article says that he sold guns to undercover agents across state borders without a license. And added to that selling guns are a show without license is a no no, but I agree more information is needed, but so far it sounded like the had a legitimate reason to act.

maybe so but I also note that the ATF doesn't have the greatest record when it comes to actually following the law. The Branch Davidian Debacle was something that should have-in my opinion-caused that bureuacracy to be permanently eliminated.
 
Well Harry's article says that he sold guns to undercover agents across state borders without a license. And added to that selling guns are a show without license is a no no, but I agree more information is needed, but so far it sounded like the had a legitimate reason to act.

Not jumping your case here but federal gun laws are completely moronic in a lot of cases.

Having this gun in this configuration will make you a felon.

norinco-sks-d.jpg


In this, it won't.

DSC_0062.jpg


Why you may ask?
Because the former has too many parts not made in America.
That's it, they function exactly the same.
 
IMHO, I don't care if the guy had a million guns at his home. If he was committing no crime with them, then he has every right to have them.

So, a quick question for you: Which is more dangerous, a guy with 1,000 guns, who has committed no crime, or a government that wants to take them away, without any evidence that a crime has been committed?

Article is here.

God I hate the ATF. Needs to be disbanded. It doesn't seem like he did anything wrong, why would they take his ****. Well at least they didn't burn his house down with him still inside. The ATF is known to do that.
 
God I hate the ATF. Needs to be disbanded. It doesn't seem like he did anything wrong, why would they take his ****. Well at least they didn't burn his house down with him still inside. The ATF is known to do that.

T-shirts seen at gun clubs

I) IS YOUR CHURCH ATF APPROVED

2) Alcohol tobacco and firearms-should be a convenience store's stock not a federal agency

3) Alcohol, tobacco and firearms-who is bringing the chips?
 
God I hate the ATF. Needs to be disbanded. It doesn't seem like he did anything wrong, why would they take his ****. Well at least they didn't burn his house down with him still inside. The ATF is known to do that.
What do you propose for handling regulation of the ATF's jurisdiction?

The ATF, like most enforcement agencies, is often under-valued because we DONT see their results directly.
 
Here is a link to a more complete story.

ATF seizes guns in raid of East Mesa home

The guy was an FFL holder, it expired in 06.
He was still selling guns, although those guns aren't really meant or usually used for criminal purposes.
All he did wrong was not renew a sellers license, which in my opinion is bull**** because it doesn't do anything to stop crime.

But, wait, wait...

So, you're saying he was committing a crime? He was breaking the law? Just like those crossing the boarder illegally, shouldn't we try to stop him from breaking the law? And if we catch him, shouldn't we prosecute him--confiscate his illegal guns, and send him to jail. Don't start parsing and attempting to justify his breaking of the law--you sound like the pro-illegals saying "they just want to work".

"The gun regs aren't fair" Boo-hoo... "There's too much paperwork..." Boo-hoo... "They just want their gun rights..."

BTW-the notion that the guns he was selling illegally wouldn't be used for criminal purposes is the most laughably stupid comment I've heard all week.

Current gun regs don't work because the NRA has seen that they've been watered down and now we're left with gaping gun show loopholes. The current black/grey market for illegal handguns exists because of the 1990's NRA push back. Pragmatic federal gun laws have become the third rail of politics. Mayor's and police chiefs all over the country are asking for better enforcement of fed gun regs.

This scumbag in Mesa is just spit in the ocean. Call me when they've seized a million illegal guns.

And if the minutemen jokers who patrol the boarder are so damned concerned with federal law, why don't they turn in all their own illegal handguns and full-autos??.... Yeah, didn't think so. They ignore the federal laws that aren't convenient while chasing after unarmed Mexicans...
 
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But, wait, wait...

So, you're saying he was committing a crime? He was breaking the law? Just like those crossing the boarder illegally, shouldn't we try to stop him from breaking the law? And if we catch him, shouldn't we prosecute him--confiscate his illegal guns, and send him to jail. Don't start parsing and attempting to justify his breaking of the law--you sound like the pro-illegals saying "they just want to work".

"The gun regs aren't fair" Boo-hoo... "There's too much paperwork..." Boo-hoo... "They just want their gun rights..."

BTW-the notion that the guns he was selling illegally wouldn't be used for criminal purposes is the most laughably stupid comment I've heard all week.

Current gun regs don't work because the NRA has seen that they've been watered down and now we're left with gaping gun show loopholes. The current black/grey market for illegal handguns exists because of the 1990's NRA push back. Pragmatic federal gun laws have become the third rail of politics. Mayor's and police chiefs all over the country are asking for better enforcement of fed gun regs.

This scumbag in Mesa is just spit in the ocean. Call me when they've seized a million illegal guns.

And if the minutemen jokers who patrol the boarder are so damned concerned with federal law, why don't they turn in all their own illegal handguns and full-autos??.... Yeah, didn't think so. They ignore the federal laws that aren't convenient while chasing after unarmed Mexicans...

What the hell does immigration have to do with this?

You don't know a thing about current gun laws either.
It shows.
 
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