Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Finds

Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin

LaMidRighter said:

You're right. Al Franken was certified and that is as official as it can get. I won't say anything other than the interest in keeping future elections honest and for either side within the law, if felons cannot vote legally by state law then they cannot vote, I don't know where the distribution would have fallen politically and don't care. In future elections I want all laws upheld and honored as much as we can possibly accomplish.

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Minnesota law is that once a felon has served their time, they can vote legally. There are questions in all this, but investigating is at worst harmless, at best would lead to less possible voter fraud in the future, so I so investigate.

Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin

Redress said:

Minnesota law is that once a felon has served their time, they can vote legally. There are questions in all this, but investigating is at worst harmless, at best would lead to less possible voter fraud in the future, so I so investigate.

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Okay, getting somewhere. 'How many were legit, what's the illegit numbers, and what does it all mean? But it's exactly about getting to the most honest system humanly possible.

Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin

LaMidRighter said:

You're right. Al Franken was certified and that is as official as it can get. I won't say anything other than the interest in keeping future elections honest and for either side within the law, if felons cannot vote legally by state law then they cannot vote, I don't know where the distribution would have fallen politically and don't care. In future elections I want all laws upheld and honored as much as we can possibly accomplish.

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And that's an honest consideration. However, Minnesota Majority admits in their report how difficult this is. You can't prevent someone from voting simply because they have been accused of a felony. A person may get convicted of a lesser charge that is not a felony. So it appears that more investigation has to take place. Otherwise if this is a simple procedure, why did MM only concentrate on two counties and why was there only a handful of names that were prosecured? MM reported that the two counties had difference responses. The one county that seemed enthusiastic about it also wanted money in order to hire more people for their department so they could do more investigations. The answer may lie in the state of Minnesota's computer system that was effect this. So what do you actually propose to do to change the current setup? You would think that would be part of an objective report by someone studying this setup. However, I find no real suggestions to change the current setup.

The people most responsible for helping enforce the rules are elected and thus controlled by the state they are in. Minnesota selects their representation. Unless you live in Minnesota, you lack jurisdiction in telling them what to do. To me that makes sense because we lack way too much information about how Minnesota's laws and systems are set up.

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Here's another write up regarding the report

First and most obvious is the common headlines claiming “Report Finds that Felons Tipped Election to Franken” and variations on that theme. Minnesota Majority’s report does not make this assertion. We acknowledge that it’s a possibility, but besides not being conclusively provable, that isn’t the point of the report. Minnesota Majority isn’t interested in undoing the 2008 election. That’s been decided, and right or wrong, it’s done. Our objective is exposing problems with the past election to prevent their recurrence in the 2010 election coming up in November.


The pundits can analyze our data any way they want but Minnesota Majority’s report does not say Senator Franken was elected by felons. It simply demonstrates that there is strong evidence of a significant number of ineligible felons voting in 2008 and calls on officials to investigate.

Press, commentators and even county prosecutors have been playing fast and loose with the numbers provided in Minnesota Majority’s report. Minnesota Majority generated a computerized list of names of possible ineligible felon voters by comparing to publicly available databases. A list of felons indicated to be ineligible to vote by the dates provided in the file from the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension and the secretary of state’s 2008 voter history file. The matched file contained 2,803 names matched exactly on first, middle and last names and year of birth.

The frequently reported figure of 341 suspected fraudulent voters is often used out of context and incorrectly in reporting. Minnesota Majority examined about 900 Hennepin and Ramsey County records in greater detail, locating court documents to verify the accuracy of the computerized match.

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Oh yeah. In other words, Fox News lies with the headline. What a surprise.

Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin

Ziggae_6 said:

Oh yeah. In other words, Fox News lies with the headline. What a surprise.

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Really? Can you show me where they lied with the headline?

FOXNews.com - Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Finds

"Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Finds"

What part of that headline is a lie? Felons did vote illegally. And if 90 % of every felon that voted illegally voted for Franken, then it did give Franken the win. There is no way of knowing how every felon (who again, voted illegally) voted, but it is statistically possible. So again, what part of the headline was a lie?

Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin

That question was answered within the thread.

Hugh_Akston said:

Really? Can you show me where they lied with the headline?

FOXNews.com - Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Finds

"Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Finds"

What part of that headline is a lie? Felons did vote illegally. And if 90 % of every felon that voted illegally voted for Franken, then it did give Franken the win. There is no way of knowing how every felon (who again, voted illegally) voted, but it is statistically possible. So again, what part of the headline was a lie?

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Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin

BDBoop said:

That question was answered within the thread.

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I didn't see it. Care to link to it or is Ziggae not capable of answering the question I posed to him?

Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin

Hugh_Akston said:

Really? Can you show me where they lied with the headline?

FOXNews.com - Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Finds

"Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Finds"

What part of that headline is a lie? Felons did vote illegally. And if 90 % of every felon that voted illegally voted for Franken, then it did give Franken the win. There is no way of knowing how every felon (who again, voted illegally) voted, but it is statistically possible. So again, what part of the headline was a lie?

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If IF'S and AND'S were pots and pans, there'd be no work for tinkers' hands.

IF they voted, IF there were enough, IF......

Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin

Hugh_Akston said:

Really? Can you show me where they lied with the headline?

FOXNews.com - Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Finds

"Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Finds"

What part of that headline is a lie? Felons did vote illegally. And if 90 % of every felon that voted illegally voted for Franken, then it did give Franken the win. There is no way of knowing how every felon (who again, voted illegally) voted, but it is statistically possible. So again, what part of the headline was a lie?

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The headline should reflect what the study reports. If we reverse this, we get:

Study finds felons voting illegally may have put Franken over the top in Minnesota.

That's not true. The truth is that:

Study finds felons have voted illegally in two counties in Minnesota and possibly in other counties and we need to fix this.

That's what the study states. Nothing more, nothing less.

"First and most obvious is the common headlines claiming “Report Finds that Felons Tipped Election to Franken” and variations on that theme. Minnesota Majority’s report does not make this assertion"--Minnesota Majority Minnesota Majority - Standing Together for Traditional Values (see their area under "Setting the Record Straight.)

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If you read the seven page report, http://www.minnesotamajority.org/Portals/0/documents/ReportOnFelonVoters.pdf
it does NOT MENTION Franken or the senate race or results. Nothing else was proven. The study only states there were irregularities in the voting.

Another truthful headline would be:

Fox makes own interpretation of study and sensationalizes it to fool gullible conservatives who do not read reports that are available on the internet.

Really, if you read the report and it involves a small number of felons who illegally voted due to some snafu in communicating through the state's system, would you care?

Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin



Hhmm…dem crook or repug crook? :2wave:

Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin

donc said:

Hhmm…dem crook or repug crook? :2wave:

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"My God, this I.C. Wiener fellow sure is getting a lot of votes!"

Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin

Deuce said:

"My God, this I.C. Wiener fellow sure is getting a lot of votes!"

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BBbbachman,s running for prez? :mrgreen:

Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin

donc said:

BBbbachman,s running for prez? :mrgreen:

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Do NOT joke about that.

Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin

Manc Skipper said:

If IF'S and AND'S were pots and pans, there'd be no work for tinkers' hands.

IF they voted, IF there were enough, IF......

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I didn't see an "if" in the title of the article, did you? :roll:

Ziggae_6 said:

The headline should reflect what the study reports. If we reverse this, we get:

Study finds felons voting illegally may have put Franken over the top in Minnesota.

That's not true. The truth is that:

Study finds felons have voted illegally in two counties in Minnesota and possibly in other counties and we need to fix this.

That's what the study states. Nothing more, nothing less.



If you read the seven page report, http://www.minnesotamajority.org/Portals/0/documents/ReportOnFelonVoters.pdf
it does NOT MENTION Franken or the senate race or results. Nothing else was proven. The study only states there were irregularities in the voting.

Another truthful headline would be:

Fox makes own interpretation of study and sensationalizes it to fool gullible conservatives who do not read reports that are available on the internet.

Really, if you read the report and it involves a small number of felons who illegally voted due to some snafu in communicating through the state's system, would you care?

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Ahh, I see now. It's just FOX News bashing and nothing more. There is nothing factually incorrect with the title of the article, and yet somehow it is a lie. :roll:

Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin

I can kinda see the point with the headline. It does create an impression that the facts of the story don't bear out. However, I don't think it is a FOX thing, I think it is a paid media thing. For profit media companies(ie almost all of them) want ratings, want sales, want page views. A headline like "Group Finds That A Few People Illegally Voted, Maybe" is not going to get that, but suggesting an election went the wrong way will.

Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin

Hugh_Akston said:

I didn't see an "if" in the title of the article, did you? :roll:


Ahh, I see now. It's just FOX News bashing and nothing more. There is nothing factually incorrect with the title of the article, and yet somehow it is a lie. :roll:

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No you don't. The finding is what the authors found in the report. They set the dimensions of the results. The authors say that they have evidence that some felons voted illegally in two countiesl. The authors DO NOT FIND that this action had any effect on helping or hurting one candidate. Don't be dense. If their headline had simply been the election may have been effected by voting irregularities. That's NOT A LIE. They chose to include that the study stated that. THAT IS A LIE.

Fox came up with the headline that it may have effected the election. This was NOT in the findings. Read the report. Read the response by the people who did the report. Its a lie and an exaggeration by Fox to claim that the report FOUND evidence that it pushed Franken to the victory. It just as easily could have made the results closer than they should have been. However, that is not the FINDING of the report either. Saying that the report FOUND this possibility is a LIE.

Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin

Redress said:

I can kinda see the point with the headline. It does create an impression that the facts of the story don't bear out. However, I don't think it is a FOX thing, I think it is a paid media thing. For profit media companies(ie almost all of them) want ratings, want sales, want page views. A headline like "Group Finds That A Few People Illegally Voted, Maybe" is not going to get that, but suggesting an election went the wrong way will.

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I agree with the motive. But its still a LIE to sensationalize the story. What was the report's findings? That cons voted illegally. Did it effect the election results? The study says they cannot demonstrate that and there is no evidence to show that. See their own statement.

Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin

Ziggae_6 said:

No you don't. The finding is what the authors found in the report. They set the dimensions of the results. The authors say that they have evidence that some felons voted illegally in two countiesl. The authors DO NOT FIND that this action had any effect on helping or hurting one candidate. Don't be dense. If their headline had simply been the election may have been effected by voting irregularities. That's NOT A LIE. They chose to include that the study stated that. THAT IS A LIE.

Fox came up with the headline that it may have effected the election. This was NOT in the findings. Read the report. Read the response by the people who did the report. Its a lie and an exaggeration by Fox to claim that the report FOUND evidence that it pushed Franken to the victory. It just as easily could have made the results closer than they should have been. However, that is not the FINDING of the report either. Saying that the report FOUND this possibility is a LIE.

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Try reading my post one more time, especially the quoted line in bold (my emphasis).

Hugh_Akston said:

Really? Can you show me where they lied with the headline?

FOXNews.com - Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Finds

"Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Finds"

What part of that headline is a lie? Felons did vote illegally. And if 90 % of every felon that voted illegally voted for Franken, then it did give Franken the win. There is no way of knowing how every felon (who again, voted illegally) voted, but it is statistically possible. So again, what part of the headline was a lie?

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The title of the article is not a lie, period. Is it sensationalism and grossly pointing out the political lean of FOX News - absolutely. But you can't seem to differentiate between the two. You come across as nothing more than a petty FOX News basher who gives MSNBC a free pass when they do far worse than this. Maybe I'm wrong and maybe you can point out for me where you called MSNBC for sensationalizing a story by misrepresenting the facts when they did this - YouTube - MSNBC is Exposed of doctoring video and inciting race baiting..

You can hate FOX News all you want, but you should watch it more often. I watch MSNBC, CNN, CNNHL, FOX and I read news stories from various websites. You are not going to get all the facts and the truth from any one individual media outlet because they all have an angle and an agenda to push - including FOX News. Simply attacking FOX News and calling them liars (when this has clearly been proven that this is not the case in this instance) is either being purposely deceitful on your behalf or intellectually dishonest on your behalf.

I'll be eagerly awaiting your response where you can show me where you are equally objective when it comes to MSNBC or CNN or CBS or ABC, etc...

Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin

Hugh_Akston said:

I didn't see an "if" in the title of the article, did you? :roll:


Ahh, I see now. It's just FOX News bashing and nothing more. There is nothing factually incorrect with the title of the article, and yet somehow it is a lie. :roll:

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It's a lie if that is not what the report had. Of course I suppose that depends on your definition of a lie. To me, something that is grossly misleading is a lie. As my mom used to say "a 10% lie is still a lie."

By that standard, the headline could have been:

Study finds felons voting illegally may have all voted for Franken's opponent

Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin

Hugh_Akston said:

Try reading my post one more time, especially the quoted line in bold (my emphasis).



The title of the article is not a lie, period. Is it sensationalism and grossly pointing out the political lean of FOX News - absolutely. But you can't seem to differentiate between the two. You come across as nothing more than a petty FOX News basher who gives MSNBC a free pass when they do far worse than this. Maybe I'm wrong and maybe you can point out for me where you called MSNBC for sensationalizing a story by misrepresenting the facts when they did this - YouTube - MSNBC is Exposed of doctoring video and inciting race baiting..

You can hate FOX News all you want, but you should watch it more often. I watch MSNBC, CNN, CNNHL, FOX and I read news stories from various websites. You are not going to get all the facts and the truth from any one individual media outlet because they all have an angle and an agenda to push - including FOX News. Simply attacking FOX News and calling them liars (when this has clearly been proven that this is not the case in this instance) is either being purposely deceitful on your behalf or intellectually dishonest on your behalf.

I'll be eagerly awaiting your response where you can show me where you are equally objective when it comes to MSNBC or CNN or CBS or ABC, etc...

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Hahaha. I am sure you are eagerly waiting so you can have a hot debate and show me how bright you are. First of all I would like you to point out where I am criticizing "the political lean of Fox News". I know for a fact that TV news is structured so that more of their market will want to watch it. Who is Fox's biggest market? Conservatives. A story that Al Franken was elected illegally would perk up the ears of conservatives and get them all excited. I am assuming that you understand this by admitting this whole story is sensationalized beyond the truth.

My strong opinion is that we owe it to ourselves to be smart consumers of anything we consume. We consume media and give it our valuable time. There is much media produced. And there is much media that is not worthy of our time. For me, the best journalism relies upon the facts and does its best to educate the public. As you watch any story or read any article, you have to be able to judge what it fact, what is opinion, what is being reported and what is being left out. You claim I should watch more Fox News, but my opinion is that we really don't need to watch more of the 24 hour news networks like the list you put down. You state a bunch of generalities in order to defend Fox and drag down other news sources. That is crap. The reality is that each news story is judged on its own merit on how its researched and presented. Regardless of the network, some stories are well done and some reporting is just sensationalism to get people to watch. Some are just designed to say what their market wants to hear.

If someone posts this article as a subject worth discussing on this website, I would hope they would know as much about the article and how much truth it contained or whether most of it was sensationalism. This wasn't done. It became obvious when I read the actual report online and the OP chose the Fox coverage. Sometimes news organizations are good at summarizing a story and it makes sense to use the news filter. In this case, the report was only seven pages and not even that technical. ( with the exception of not explaining all of the Minnesota election laws and reporting systems which are unique in every state--of course that would be boring and C-Span type info). Fox News could have chosen that angle to better educate their consumers on this story. Instead, they chose the sensationalism which did a terrible job of educating people . In fact they didn't even discuss some of the shortcomings of their finding that Minnesota Majority came out with in their report. I know MM is not exactly a neutral group, but they were more honest than Fox was in discussing their own report.

You are wrong in trying to push this discussion into an argument over which news agencies are the most honest. That is not the subject of this thread. The thread is about Minnesota Majority's report. Its unfortunate that the OP went with a Fox News coverage instead of pulling up the report and looking at the MM website.

You make the statement that I should watch more of Fox News Network?? This is your main point? Or that all news is sensationalized but I should watch it anyway? What are you saying, that I want to work at being LESS informed? Really, we are probably helped by watching less television.

It is examples like the Minnesota Majority Felon Report story that convinces me that Fox is not worthy of my time or consideration. There is too much out there to waste my time. Usually written news is best because it can cover a story much more in depth. I usually use NPR or C-Span as my regular media sources, primarily because they allow coverage from most sides and spend more time on an individual story. Yep, dull as paint drying, but generally more accurate. Now days you don't even have to watch or listen to an entire program since they will be up on their website. NPR even does a good job of putting the transcript online.

_________________________________________________

One more time. THe truth. Fox's headline says that the "findings of the report" is that illegal voting MAY have pushed Franken over the top. The truth is that the "finding of the report stated that illegal voting occurred and could not say that it helped any candidate.

Bottom line: Its a lie regardless of the motive. Yet you know it and you want to keep watching?? I really don't understand your motive, but it is your choice as a consumer to consume (legally) what you want. If you like sensationalized news because it is your form of entertainment, thats up to you.

Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin

j-mac said:

Well, well, well.....Demo's cheating to gain a Senate seat? Parish the thought! :shock:

Now stonewalling to make sure that they can cheat in the future. Is anyone really surprised. Frankin is a joke! A mental midget! And a liar. Just like his boss Obama.



Thoughts?


j-mac

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Many thoughts....

1) Guys from South Carolina feigning outrage over election irregularities are akin to the pot calling the kettle black.
2) This assumes that felons voted 98% for Franken.... statistically improbable, even in a largely democratic district
3) Tie goes to the Ump... in other words, Coleman failed to win the race outright... you are going to have a certain amount of illegal, double votes or bad counts... you job is to win by enough to take that out of the equation.
4) Franken has a degree in Political Science from Harvard. He is no mental midget.
5) This was no where as egregious as the shenanigans (insufficient inter-city voting booths, plenty in the suburbs) that went on in Ohio in '04 that kept Bush in office.... again, never make your race so close that this could be a problem.

Sorry, there is nothing here people... just some malcontent trying to make something out of nothing.... move on.

Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin

Deuce said:

341 convicted felon votes, 312 being the difference in the election. To be the deciding factor, the felons would have had to break like 90% towards Franken. When was the last time any demographic broke that hard in a Senate race?

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You mean like when the blacks voted 97% for one candidate, for "undisclosed" reasons?

Let's....take those 341 bogus votes, and add to that those bogus votes one of Franken's team "found" in the trunk of his car...and the precincts where Franken received more votes than were registered voters ...

Nooooo...Democrats don't cheat at elections....

Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin

Scarecrow Akhbar said:

You mean like when the blacks voted 97% for one candidate, for "undisclosed" reasons?

Let's....take those 341 bogus votes, and add to that those bogus votes one of Franken's team "found" in the trunk of his car...and the precincts where Franken received more votes than were registered voters ...

Nooooo...Democrats don't cheat at elections....

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They both probably cheat, not a party thing but a human thing.

Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin

Good article here, which states in part "I don’t mean to be disrespectful, just instructive, but I’d like to comment on the comments of Sen. Coleman and Gov. Pawlenty. As we know, Coleman won the 2002 Senate election 11 days after incumbent Sen. Paul Wellstone was killed in a plane crash. Polls showed Wellstone was going to win that election. For Coleman to call Franken “an accidental senator” is tragically ironic, for there are some who believe Coleman was the original accidental senator."

Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin

Deuce said:

Well, I'm surprised to find myself pointing out once again that Baltimore is not in Minnesota.

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The demographics between Balto, and the Minniapolis/St. Paul area are similar. Maybe you don't understand how to compare, and contrast quite yet....Hmmm...Still got some time in school?


j-mac

Re: Felons Voting Illegally May Have Put Franken Over the Top in Minnesota, Study Fin

Demographics have no bearing on the subject at hand though. Guess you still have your own learning to do.

j-mac said:

The demographics between Balto, and the Minniapolis/St. Paul area are similar. Maybe you don't understand how to compare, and contrast quite yet....Hmmm...Still got some time in school?


j-mac

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