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Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

Arcana XV said:
Your lack of understanding of who your real enemies are is astounding.

Neither wealth nor education are a guarantee that a person will not get involved in international terrorism. In fact, the opposite seems to be true. The most dangerous international terrorists have a high education and are reasonably to extremely wealthy. Osama Bin Laden ring a bell? Also, many of the 9/11 perpetrators came from well-off families. The underwear bomber comes from a rich Nigerian family. How do you explain this, genius? According to your theory, these guys should be praising Allah for their many pecuniary blessings and never, ever have an evil thought cross their minds.
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That remark was a tongue-in-cheek. I kinda dispelled, the myth of terrorism because of poverty a couple of pages ago *I believe it was on this thread*
Obviously, the West has evolved quite a bit and the Arabs were only recently dragged into the modern world and for the sake of the good Muslims, you might know, is that there is a reformation that leads to an evolution in Islam and the rise of moderates in the mainstream.

How likely is such an Islamic reformation?
 
ric27 said:
That remark was a tongue-in-cheek. I kinda dispelled, the myth of terrorism because of poverty a couple of pages ago *I believe it was on this thread*
Obviously, the West has evolved quite a bit and the Arabs were only recently dragged into the modern world and for the sake of the good Muslims, you might know, is that there is a reformation that leads to an evolution in Islam and the rise of moderates in the mainstream.

How likely is such an Islamic reformation?
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Such a reformation is actually quite likely. It might, however, come in a form that you, as a self-declared "very conservative" individual, might not like at all.

According to this Muslim author, and I actually tend to agree with most of his proposed strategy, the solution is for the Muslim left to unite, organize and obtain more political power and influence than the Muslim right currently holds.

He explains it all quite well in this series of opinion pieces, this one being the most relevant to your question:

The making of the Muslim left | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

You'll find links to the other articles in the series at the end of this piece. They're really quite interesting.
 
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Arcana XV said:
Right. But the point is it's much easier to do that in a free, secular society than in an oppressive and/or deeply religious one. Look at the North Koreans. Weakened and broken by fear, their ability to change their fate is minimal.
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If that were truly the case Europe would look much different today....People have the ability to change, and others have the responsibility to aid in freedom, regardless of what those agents of communism try to preach, or call them. Man was intended to be a free person, with free thought, and free will. And what makes a country exceptional is whether or not they adhere, and promote that concept.


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
If that were truly the case Europe would look much different today....People have the ability to change, and others have the responsibility to aid in freedom, regardless of what those agents of communism try to preach, or call them. Man was intended to be a free person, with free thought, and free will. And what makes a country exceptional is whether or not they adhere, and promote that concept.


j-mac
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The European culture is different. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Europe had the benefit of a strong intellectual elite that often was forced to go underground but still managed to reach the general population and motivate them into action or rebellion. Europeans have a history of being warriors and conquerors. At one point, Europeans had colonies on all continents. The Enlightenment philosophers who spread the very ideas you speak of were European. Culture is fate. What does North Korea have by comparison? A much more docile population that easily fell prey to an oppressive cult of personality. A society that squashes individuality and free thought in all forms. I really don't see how they can get out of this one without outside intervention. I honestly don't believe they have it in them.
 
Arcana XV said:
The European culture is different. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Europe had the benefit of a strong intellectual elite that often was forced to go underground but still managed to reach the general population and motivate them into action or rebellion. Europeans have a history of being warriors and conquerors. At one point, Europeans had colonies on all continents. The Enlightenment philosophers who spread the very ideas you speak of were European. Culture is fate. What does North Korea have by comparison? A much more docile population that easily fell prey to an oppressive cult of personality. A society that squashes individuality and free thought in all forms. I really don't see how they can get out of this one without outside intervention. I honestly don't believe they have it in them.
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One of the classic distinctions between liberalism and conservatism involves attitudes towards social order vs. social justice. The European enlightenment fueled the liberal notion of social justice so thoroughly that the very value systems of the west incorporated social justice as a key element of their operating system. North Korea, like many other Asian societies, places a higher value on social order, so is more resistant to change.

The issue of social justice vs. social order is also key to understanding the issues faced due to the intersection of Islam and the west in that the establishment of a mosque at ground zero represents a virulently conservative ideology in terms of the value of social order. Islamism is all ABOUT social order, as it micromanages peoples lives down to the iota, severely restricts freedom of expression, and imposes rigid expectations for behavior based upon the need to preserve such order. This is what so many on the left fail to understand when they indulge in their blather of apologia in that they are lending support to the very most conservative ideology imaginable, an ideology that places such a high value on social order that it completely subjugates the individual in terms of basic rights. Islamism is totalitarianism, and like the totalitarianism of an individual like our North Korean nutjob, needs to understood for what it is.
 
Arcana XV said:
Such a reformation is actually quite likely. It might, however, come in a form that you, as a self-declared "very conservative" individual, might not like at all.

According to this Muslim author, and I actually tend to agree with most of his proposed strategy, the solution is for the Muslim left to unite, organize and obtain more political power and influence than the Muslim right currently holds.

He explains it all quite well in this series of opinion pieces, this one being the most relevant to your question:

The making of the Muslim left | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

You'll find links to the other articles in the series at the end of this piece. They're really quite interesting.
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So you can't point to anything tangible, just a few articles with no real backing.

That is his point.
 
texmaster said:
So you can't point to anything tangible, just a few articles with no real backing.

That is his point.
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I find one aspect of his strategy particularly miscalculated. When he says:


"I recommend creating a viable and well organised Muslim left. It would be an intra-religious movement as opposed to a universalist one (though obviously it doesn't shun allies). It would be a cousin of the international left, but in a Muslim garb. "


He fails to understand that the global left has already thrown in their lot with the Islamists. For his movement to gain any traction, they need to associate themselves with true liberals and moderates in the west instead of the already profoundly illiberal global left.
 
texmaster said:
So you can't point to anything tangible, just a few articles with no real backing.

That is his point.
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Ric's question was, "How likely is such an Islamic reformation?"

How, exactly, does one point to tangible evidence when responding to a request for a prediction of future events, gesture to one's crystal ball?

:lol:
 
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Gardener said:
One of the classic distinctions between liberalism and conservatism involves attitudes towards social order vs. social justice. The European enlightenment fueled the liberal notion of social justice so thoroughly that the very value systems of the west incorporated social justice as a key element of their operating system. North Korea, like many other Asian societies, places a higher value on social order, so is more resistant to change.

The issue of social justice vs. social order is also key to understanding the issues faced due to the intersection of Islam and the west in that the establishment of a mosque at ground zero represents a virulently conservative ideology in terms of the value of social order. Islamism is all ABOUT social order, as it micromanages peoples lives down to the iota, severely restricts freedom of expression, and imposes rigid expectations for behavior based upon the need to preserve such order. This is what so many on the left fail to understand when they indulge in their blather of apologia in that they are lending support to the very most conservative ideology imaginable, an ideology that places such a high value on social order that it completely subjugates the individual in terms of basic rights. Islamism is totalitarianism, and like the totalitarianism of an individual like our North Korean nutjob, needs to understood for what it is.
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I can agree with you on most of that. Islam as practiced in the strictest sense is an ultra-conservative, illiberal way of life. I do, however, see more hope of a reformation, especially in the West by liberal Muslims such as our friend Laila and the guy who wrote these articles, than I see any hope whatsoever for the North Koreans who are locked inside that hell hole with no way out, not physically nor intellectually.
 
Gardener said:
He fails to understand that the global left has already thrown in their lot with the Islamists. For his movement to gain any traction, they need to associate themselves with true liberals and moderates in the west instead of the already profoundly illiberal global left.
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Yes, but liberal Muslims have not really become as organized as the Islamists have. Do you not think, perhaps, that if they manage to fraction the Muslim community into a liberal/conservative dynamic that they might get somewhere and that maybe then the "illiberal global left" will ally itself with them?
 
ric27 said:
That remark was a tongue-in-cheek. I kinda dispelled, the myth of terrorism because of poverty a couple of pages ago *I believe it was on this thread*
Obviously, the West has evolved quite a bit and the Arabs were only recently dragged into the modern world and for the sake of the good Muslims, you might know, is that there is a reformation that leads to an evolution in Islam and the rise of moderates in the mainstream.

How likely is such an Islamic reformation?
Click to expand...

It's possible and in fact is already underway.
 
Gardener said:
He fails to understand that the global left has already thrown in their lot with the Islamists. For his movement to gain any traction, they need to associate themselves with true liberals and moderates in the west instead of the already profoundly illiberal global left.
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If by "Islamists" you mean Al Qaeda and similar groups, you couldn't be more mistaken. Liberal Muslims and liberal Westerners share a distaste for Western imperialism. That's going to be a given in any kind of reformist or democratic movement. Al Qaeda shares it as well, but that doesn't mean they're aligned with liberals of any sort. They correctly believe that military conflict between Islam and the West will weaken the reformists, which is one of the reasons they try to provoke us.

The worst misconception we can cling to is the idea that everyone is either with us or with the terrorists. Most Muslims don't want to be bossed around by either party. But until we learn to accept that, we'll always be fighting people like the Iraqi insurgents we mistakenly labeled "Islamofascists" when they were nothing of the kind.
 
Winston Smith said:
It's possible and in fact is already underway.
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Can't take your article seriously it lists Indonesia as "one of the most autocratic anti-democratic regimes in the world," when in fact next to Tunisia, it is one of the most liberal Muslim majority countries and the only one which is listed as completely free by freedomhouse.org.
 
Agent Ferris said:
Can't take your article seriously it lists Indonesia as "one of the most autocratic anti-democratic regimes in the world," when in fact next to Tunisia, it is one of the most liberal Muslim majority countries and the only one which is listed as completely free by freedomhouse.org.
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It was written before Suharto resigned. If you'd read it at the time, you'd probably have scoffed at the idea that Indonesia would ever be free or liberal.
 
Of course, I'm assuming you wouldn't have thrown in with Suharto just because he was a US ally.
 
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Winston Smith;105 and here's why8887771 said:
It's possible and in fact is already underway.
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Underway...where??

Mister Winston Smith - We would ALL like to see an Islamic reformation too. Unfortunately, it ain't going to happen and here's why....

Its theologically impossible to change the Koran (though it could be argued its possible to plus and subtract hadith from the 'good' and 'bad' pile). Islam is a fixed state religion, irrevocably frozen in its form. Change it and its no longer Islam - and since Islam is perfect and literally true then why would Muslims want to change it?
 
ric27 said:
Underway...where??

Mister Winston Smith - We would ALL like to see an Islamic reformation too. Unfortunately, it ain't going to happen and here's why....

Its theologically impossible to change the Koran (though it could be argued its possible to plus and subtract hadith from the 'good' and 'bad' pile). Islam is a fixed state religion, irrevocably frozen in its form. Change it and its no longer Islam - and since Islam is perfect and literally true then why would Muslims want to change it?
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I don't think that's necessarily true. There are people who seem to have a lot invested in believing it is true...and not all of them are Muslims.
 
Winston Smith said:
I don't think that's necessarily true. There are people who seem to have a lot invested in believing it is true...and not all of them are Muslims.
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We can consider their culture to be backwards by our standards. Understand, by their standards they may consider ours to be decadent and without moral values (their values). So they consider ours to be inferior. Ultimately, there isn't a universal, objective right or wrong culture. The reference point is always subjective.

If different cultures can find a way to coexist peacefully, then awesome. The issue arises when one culture has an irreducible conflict with another and they cannot co-exist.

As an example, any culture or belief system which requires everyone to conform, whether they want to or not, is inherently in conflict with every other culture or belief that does not want to conform.
 
`
ric27 said:
Underway...where??

Mister Winston Smith - We would ALL like to see an Islamic reformation too. Unfortunately, it ain't going to happen and here's why....

Its theologically impossible to change the Koran (though it could be argued its possible to plus and subtract hadith from the 'good' and 'bad' pile). Islam is a fixed state religion, irrevocably frozen in its form. Change it and its no longer Islam - and since Islam is perfect and literally true then why would Muslims want to change it?
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The same is true with respect to Christianity and the Bible, and yet somehow Christians managed to change without changing their holy texts.

Muslims in many places throughout the world have managed to live in peace and harmony with their pagan brothers and sisters. Their very way of life is a testament to the fact that you don't know what you're talking about.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
`Their very way of life is a testament to the fact that you don't know what you're talking about.
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They ain't "just like us". Life itself has minimal value. Everyone wants better for their children? Right. I suppose honor killings that place the perceived honor of the family 100 rungs up on the ladder above human life fits that mould.

Slain Texas Sisters Amina and Sarah Said: One Year Later and Still No Justice - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com

A brief synopsis...

An Islamic cab driver brutally murdered his two teenage daughters because they committed the unspeakable act of dating Westerners. The girls had fled with their mother, but their brother, who remained loyal to their father, convinced them to return and that all would be forgiven and well. The day they returned, the father took the girls out in his cab, ostensibly for an evening meal and shot both girls. The one, he killed quickly, but the other was tortured by several well placed gunshots that inflicted incredible pain without death.

Oh, and the girls were molested by their daddy when they were toddlers. Family values, huh?

This is a culture that is stuck in the 600's AD. It is brutal, barbaric, and has no modern sense of human life or any adherence to anything resembling Western or Christian values. It is indeed an alien culture, and those that want to bunny-hug them and ignore the facts do so not only at their peril but at our peril as well.
 
ric27 said:
They ain't "just like us". Life itself has minimal value. Everyone wants better for their children? Right. I suppose honor killings that place the perceived honor of the family 100 rungs up on the ladder above human life fits that mould.

Slain Texas Sisters Amina and Sarah Said: One Year Later and Still No Justice - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com

A brief synopsis...

An Islamic cab driver brutally murdered his two teenage daughters because they committed the unspeakable act of dating Westerners. The girls had fled with their mother, but their brother, who remained loyal to their father, convinced them to return and that all would be forgiven and well. The day they returned, the father took the girls out in his cab, ostensibly for an evening meal and shot both girls. The one, he killed quickly, but the other was tortured by several well placed gunshots that inflicted incredible pain without death.

Oh, and the girls were molested by their daddy when they were toddlers. Family values, huh?

This is a culture that is stuck in the 600's AD. It is brutal, barbaric, and has no modern sense of human life or any adherence to anything resembling Western or Christian values. It is indeed an alien culture, and those that want to bunny-hug them and ignore the facts do so not only at their peril but at our peril as well.
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Yes and this story proves that all 1.2 billion Muslims in the world condone this :roll:

I love how you take a story and apply it to 1.2 billion people. Idiotic is an understatement to describe your tactics.
 
TheNextEra said:
Yes and this story proves that all 1.2 billion Muslims in the world condone this :roll:

I love how you take a story and apply it to 1.2 billion people. Idiotic is an understatement to describe your tactics.
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The better you understand them, the better you can fight them
 
ric27 said:
The better you understand them, the better you can fight them
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Well you have shown that you know jack **** about them, so you probably should look into that.

Applying single stories like this to 1.2 billion people is amateur hour at best. I just hope you don't start killing random Muslims.
 
TheNextEra said:
Well you have shown that you know jack **** about them, so you probably should look into that.
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But, of course, our leaders tell us Islam is a "Religion of Peace" and tolerant, so I must be an Islamphobe because I am obviously confusing truth for fantasy...
Applying single stories like this to 1.2 billion people is amateur hour at best.
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I believe extremists are the Muslim equivalent of a regular Bible-study, Sunday church-going Christian, except that Baptists aren't driving homicide-carbombs into Jewish synagouges or Methodist churches.

The ones called moderates are like a Christian that only goes to church at Christmas or Easter. In other words they are the bad Muslims and the killers are the good Muslims.

The Koran does not preach peace and tolerance. You should read it, cover to cover. The Koran and the Hadith are about Islam becoming the predominant religion through what ever means necessary. War when Islam is strong, deception and subversion otherwise.

That doesn't mean every Muslim believes that. Doesn't mean they don't.
I just hope you don't start killing random Muslims.
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Christ Jesus' taught us to love our enemies and to turn the other cheek.
 
TheNextEra said:
Yes and this story proves that all 1.2 billion Muslims in the world condone this :roll:

I love how you take a story and apply it to 1.2 billion people. Idiotic is an understatement to describe your tactics.
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Where are the CAIR statements condemning this type of action? Where is the MSA on this topic? Will they condemn Hamas, or Hezbollah?

The answer is that they don't have to because they rely on useful dupes to muddy the waters for them.

j-mac
 
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