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Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

TacticalEvilDan said:
Okay, so that wouldn't apply here.

Oh well, so much for easy answers. :lol:
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I see.

So, you would support any mosque, church, temple, synagogue, sanctuary, or other religious house of worship that discriminated against anyone?

I find it amazing that Liberals will break their asses to defend the most intolerant religion of our time.

I believe that the Ground Zero Mosque should be allowed to be built, only when they open their doors to all faiths, to worship within it's confines.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
You know, what strikes me most in this thread is that the opposition posts, a lot of which are coming from conservative members, are essentially rooted in strong emotions.

Why is it that when liberals do it, it's called having a bleeding heart, whereas when conservatives do it, it's called common decency or propriety? :lol:
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Because it's true.

This is a letter from Ron Weddington, who was the co-council arguing in favor of Roe v.Wade:

"I don't think you are going to go very far in reforming the country until we have a better educated, healthier, wealthier population.... Start immediately to eliminate the barely educated, unhealthy and poor segment of our country [through abortion].... There, I've said it. It's what we all know is true, but we only whisper it, because as liberals who believe in individual rights, we view any program which might treat the disadvantaged differently as discriminatory, mean-spirited and...well...so Republican."
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Why do Liberals think the way that they do, is the real question.

I was in my teens when I figured out that Liberals didn't give a **** about anything more than their own agenda.
 
apdst said:
I see.

So, you would support any mosque, church, temple, synagogue, sanctuary, or other religious house of worship that discriminated against anyone?

I find it amazing that Liberals will break their asses to defend the most intolerant religion of our time.
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Okay, first off, back the **** up. I'm not a Liberal. Use the right quip if you're going to get quippy with me.

Second off, while I think it's wrong to discriminate against potential employees / customers of secular businesses and institutions because that affects their quality of life, people can live without walking into a religious structure -- especially one hostile to them. Furthermore, I'm a big believer in the First Amendment, and not welcoming someone in who violates the basic sensibilities of the religion for which the structure was erected is basic to that.

apdst said:
I believe that the Ground Zero Mosque should be allowed to be built, only when they open their doors to all faiths, to worship within it's confines.
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Since it won't be on Ground Zero, and is in fact will be on private property which was purchased for this construction, oh well.
 
apdst said:
Because it's true.

This is a letter from Ron Weddington, who was the co-council arguing in favor of Roe v.Wade:



Why do Liberals think the way that they do, is the real question.

I was in my teens when I figured out that Liberals didn't give a **** about anything more than their own agenda.
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In other words, you're blind to the hypocrisy. Nice. :lol:
 
Arcana XV said:
Heh, I was around the same age when I figured out that both Liberals and Conservatives don't give a **** about anything other than their own agenda.
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I agree with that statement, but I also figured out that the Conservative agenda is much more user friendly.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
In other words, you're blind to the hypocrisy. Nice. :lol:
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Quite the opposite. I'm illustrating the hypocrisy of the Leftist/Progressive/Liberal agenda.

Margaret Sanger was the Progressive who is considered the mother of Planned Parenthood. An award, called, "The Maggie", is given each year to folks--all are Liberals--whom put in the most effort towards supporting legalized abortion in this country. Margaret Sanger is also the person who dreamed up the, "Negro Project", that said that the best way to help blacks in America was to exterminate the race, or at least slow it's expansion.
 
Arcana XV said:
When it comes to fiscal responsibility yes, it is. When it starts mixing religion and politics, not so much.
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Mixing religion with politics? How many times have the Reverends Jackson and Sharpton made political speeches at churches, all the while running for president?
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Hopefully, someday, you'll figure out that both sides of the coin are, in their own way, equally unfriendly.
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"Equally unfriendly"? Not even close.

The expanse of user friendly-ness between the Left and the Right is a thousand miles wide.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Swiss Muslims are a lot more secular than you might expect, and in an effort to show their friends and neighbors that they didn't represent any kind of threat to Swiss society, many of them voted for the ban.

The people behind the ban effort expended so much time and effort demonizing the Muslims, that many of them wanted to make this concession to allay any fears their countrymen might have.

As it is, the minarets are mainly symbolic, as Swiss noise ordinances make calls to prayer from their heights all but impossible.
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Your idealistic view of Islamic immigration erroneously assumes that they will assimilate and become Switzerlandized. Their religious fervor will wane and they will adopt their culture, spread out though the population, melt into the melting pot. The reality is, they don't. The vast majority congregate in Muslim enclaves, which is easy to understand. Common language, common belief, relative who helped them come over, easy access to halal items, etc. But the result is that they don't melt, they remain lumps. If you make beef stew, and keep replenishing the pot, but you don't add beef, carrots, onions, etc., just potatoes, how long before your beef stew has become potato soup?
 
ric27 said:
Your idealistic view of Islamic immigration erroneously assumes that they will assimilate and become Switzerlandized. Their religious fervor will wane and they will adopt their culture, spread out though the population, melt into the melting pot. The reality is, they don't. The vast majority congregate in Muslim enclaves, which is easy to understand. Common language, common belief, relative who helped them come over, easy access to halal items, etc. But the result is that they don't melt, they remain lumps. If you make beef stew, and keep replenishing the pot, but you don't add beef, carrots, onions, etc., just potatoes, how long before your beef stew has become potato soup?
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Please, stop. Your ignorance on the Swiss Muslim population is painful to read.

Are you perhaps mistaking my country with the UK?

There are no better integrated Muslims in Europe than those who live here.
 
apdst said:
Mixing religion with politics? How many times have the Reverends Jackson and Sharpton made political speeches at churches, all the while running for president?
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What, you expect me to disagree with you? :lol: I despise both parties equally. I'm really glad I'm not American. I honestly would not know who to ever vote for.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Swiss Muslims are a lot more secular than you might expect, and in an effort to show their friends and neighbors that they didn't represent any kind of threat to Swiss society, many of them voted for the ban.
.
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Just wtf are you talking about?

Muslim Leaders Condemn Swiss Ban

[QUOTEZURICH – Muslim leaders from around the world condemned a vote in Switzerland to ban the construction of minarets in the Alpine country, raising fresh fears of a backlash against Swiss interests around the world.

Voters in Switzerland approved a referendum Sunday to ban the building of new minarets on mosques. Nearly 58% of voters, and all but four of the country's 26 cantons, supported the initiative, with support for the ban reaching 70% in some regions.The outcome was a surprise in a country that has had far fewer problems with the integration of its Muslim minority than its European neighbors. As a result, the government braced for a possible backlash against Swiss businesses, even as companies themselves took a low-key response to the outcome, hoping not to stir tension.

Political and religious leaders of Muslim countries were quick to condemn the vote. Maskuri Abdillah, head of Indonesia's biggest Muslim group, Nahdlatul Ulama, said the vote reflected "a hatred of Swiss people against Muslim communities."

Egypt's top cleric called the referendum an "insult" to Muslims, while the Organization of the Islamic Conference, the biggest Muslim group with 57 member states, called the vote a "recent example of growing anti-Islamic incitements in Europe by extremist, anti-immigrant, xenophobic, racist, scare-mongering ultra-right politicians who reign over common sense, wisdom and universal values."

"It is a bad answer to a bad question," Babacar Ba, the Geneva ambassador of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference told Swiss journalists Monday. "I fear that this kind of thing is simply a gift to extremism and intolerance."[/QUOTE]
 
ric27 said:
Just wtf are you talking about?

Muslim Leaders Condemn Swiss Ban

[QUOTEZURICH – Muslim leaders from around the world condemned a vote in Switzerland to ban the construction of minarets in the Alpine country, raising fresh fears of a backlash against Swiss interests around the world.

Voters in Switzerland approved a referendum Sunday to ban the building of new minarets on mosques. Nearly 58% of voters, and all but four of the country's 26 cantons, supported the initiative, with support for the ban reaching 70% in some regions.The outcome was a surprise in a country that has had far fewer problems with the integration of its Muslim minority than its European neighbors. As a result, the government braced for a possible backlash against Swiss businesses, even as companies themselves took a low-key response to the outcome, hoping not to stir tension.

Political and religious leaders of Muslim countries were quick to condemn the vote. Maskuri Abdillah, head of Indonesia's biggest Muslim group, Nahdlatul Ulama, said the vote reflected "a hatred of Swiss people against Muslim communities."

Egypt's top cleric called the referendum an "insult" to Muslims, while the Organization of the Islamic Conference, the biggest Muslim group with 57 member states, called the vote a "recent example of growing anti-Islamic incitements in Europe by extremist, anti-immigrant, xenophobic, racist, scare-mongering ultra-right politicians who reign over common sense, wisdom and universal values."

"It is a bad answer to a bad question," Babacar Ba, the Geneva ambassador of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference told Swiss journalists Monday. "I fear that this kind of thing is simply a gift to extremism and intolerance."
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He's right. Many Swiss Muslims actually voted FOR the ban. I guess that didn't make the news in your little Islamophobic world, eh?

ETA: What's more, after Gaddafi of Lybia made some threats against our country after the ban, many Swiss Muslims protested his statements and held signs that said "Gaddafi, keep your hands off our country."

Damn, those dangerous Muslims who want to kill us all. :lol:
 
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Jetboogieman said:
Community Centre with a mosque inside it...
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How do you have a Mosque inside of a Community Center? The entire thing is a Mosque which doubles as a Community Center.

Wow, how about that, wouldn't opposing the Mosque with lies and hyperbole be a great way to gain votes?
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So now you don't like my 3rd source, I've provided an article from the Huffington Post, and article from the New York Post and now an article from CNN all stating the same exact ****ing thing. Do you perhaps have an article contradicting my three? Or do I have to continue to indulge in your ad-hominem logical fallacies?

I want proof. And not "Jihad Watch"
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Bradley: Are you in any way suggesting that we in the United States deserved what happened?

Faisal: I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened, but united states policies were an accessory to the crime that happened.

Bradley: You say that we're an accessory? How?

Faisal: Because we have been accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world. In fact, in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA.

Prominent American Muslims denounce terror committed in the name of Islam
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According to the State Department's assessment, "Hamas terrorists, especially those in the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, have conducted many attacks, including large-scale suicide bombings, against Israeli civilian and military targets."

Asked if he agreed with the State Department's assessment, Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf told WABC radio, "Look, I'm not a politician.

"The issue of terrorism is a very complex question," he told interviewer Aaron Klein.

"There was an attempt in the '90s to have the UN define what terrorism is and say who was a terrorist. There was no ability to get agreement on that."

Asked again for his opinion on Hamas, an exasperated Rauf wouldn't budge.

"I am a peace builder. I will not allow anybody to put me in a position where I am seen by any party in the world as an adversary or as an enemy," Rauf said, insisting that he wants to see peace in Israel between Jews and Arabs.

Rauf also would not answer a question about Egypt's outlawed Muslim Brotherhood.

"I have nothing to do with the Muslim Brotherhood. My father was never a member of the Muslim Brotherhood," he said, disputing a rumor.

Muslim Imam leading push to build a mosque near Ground Zero wavers on questions about Hamas as a terror group - NYPOST.com
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Agent Ferris said:
How do you have a Mosque inside of a Community Center? The entire thing is a Mosque which doubles as a Community Center.
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That's an opinion not a fact.

So now you don't like my 3rd source, I've provided an article from the Huffington Post, and article from the New York Post and now an article from CNN all stating the same exact ****ing thing. Do you perhaps have an article contradicting my three? Or do I have to continue to indulge in your ad-hominem logical fallacies?
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The links you provided were opinion articles, not official pronouncements by the organizers of the mosque for when THEY said it would be. when I see that I'll be satisfied. But until then have fun trying to pass off opinions as fact.
 
Jetboogieman said:
That's an opinion not a fact.
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What? Again how do you have a Mosque inside of a Community Center? That's like saying that you have a Church inside of a Community center, the Church is a Church which doubles as a Community center but its principle purpose is as a church.


The links you provided were opinion articles, not official pronouncements by the organizers of the mosque for when THEY said it would be. when I see that I'll be satisfied. But until then have fun trying to pass off opinions as fact.
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Ya I guess they're all just pulling the date out of the air. :roll:
 
Agent Ferris said:
Ya I guess they're all just pulling the date out of the air. :roll:
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Well, since your sources are a:

A Rabbi
A Republican running for governor
And some random NYPOST Article, which none of them give a source or any indication of how they know that the date is September 11th 2011.

Until you can give me a concrete source for that claim, it doesn't stand.
 
Jetboogieman said:
Well, since your sources are a:

A Rabbi
A Republican running for governor
And some random NYPOST Article, which none of them give a source or any indication of how they know that the date is September 11th 2011.

Until you can give me a concrete source for that claim, it doesn't stand.
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Agentferris can throw around as many statistics as you want and he'll just get something like "I don't really believe all that".

*The facts don't matter to you.* You will not acknowledge ferris's factual argument because you are operating from an emotional basis (feelings and beliefs).
 
ric27 said:
Agentferris can throw around as many statistics as you want and he'll just get something like "I don't really believe all that".

*The facts don't matter to you.* You will not acknowledge ferris's factual argument because you are operating from an emotional basis (feelings and beliefs).
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Um no. I'm sorry but I am reasonable. Hard for you to believe eh?

Those sources were not concrete. And I'll have you know I have never really revealed my true feelings on this subject. So I shall do so now.

I think the people who bought the site to build the mosque were incredibly short sited. I think they should have known it would cause an uproar. They were pretty naive and dumb to do it. HOWEVER... they own the site. You have private property laws. And the constitution which grants them the right to their religion and to worship where they choose.

A lot of conservatives say the country is only great when we follow the constitution to the letter, well disallowing them their right to their property and what to do with it, is against everything America claims to stand for, and all because of the actions of an extreme minority who poison their religion with their reckless and evil violence.

Do I personally like it? Not really. But that is not for me to decide. I do not get to give people rights when I feel like it or not.

P.S. The only reason I get so pissed off, and in the interests of fairness I apologise for my outburst the other day, but I really hate it when these debates turn into Christianity vs. Islam or trying to paint all Muslims as terrorists. I will not accept these arguments. And will attempt to debunk them wherever I see them.
 
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Arcana XV said:
He's right. Many Swiss Muslims actually voted FOR the ban. I guess that didn't make the news in your little Islamophobic world, eh?

ETA: What's more, after Gaddafi of Lybia made some threats against our country after the ban, many Swiss Muslims protested his statements and held signs that said "Gaddafi, keep your hands off our country."
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Well, lets refresh a little Muslim protocol :)

Libya: Gaddafi declares Jihad on Switzerland - Afrik-news.com : Africa news, Maghreb news - The african daily newspaper

Libya’s president Mr. Muammar Gaddafi has called on all Muslims to shun Switzerland and begin a jihad against the Alpine nation. The antagonism is reported to be a spillover of a diplomatic row between Libya and Switzerland that began in 2008, following the arrest of Muammar Gaddafi‘s son, Hannibal Gaddafi’s, in Geneva after he was accused of assaulting two servants.
Gaddafi’s declaration of a ‘holy war’ on Switzerland came while speaking at a meeting to mark the birthday of the Prophet Muhammad. "Let us wage jihad against Switzerland, Zionism and foreign aggression. Any Muslim in any part of the world, who works with Switzerland is an apostate, is against Muhammad, God and the Koran," Gaddafi was quoted as saying.

Libya has stopped issuing visas to citizens from many European nations, prompting condemnation from the European Commission. This move by Libya was in response to reports that Switzerland had blacklisted 188 high-ranking Libyans, including Mr. Gaddafi and his family, denying them entry permits.
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ric27 said:
Your idealistic view of Islamic immigration erroneously assumes that they will assimilate and become Switzerlandized.
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But, but, but, that's exactly what happens! Seriously! I'm not joking!

For once!

ric27 said:
Their religious fervor will wane and they will adopt their culture, spread out though the population, melt into the melting pot. The reality is, they don't. The vast majority congregate in Muslim enclaves, which is easy to understand. Common language, common belief, relative who helped them come over, easy access to halal items, etc. But the result is that they don't melt, they remain lumps. If you make beef stew, and keep replenishing the pot, but you don't add beef, carrots, onions, etc., just potatoes, how long before your beef stew has become potato soup?
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That isn't what happens in Switzerland!

Why would there be Muslims in Switzerland voting to ban minarettes if that were true?

Where was the rioting?

Where was the looting?

Where were the death threats on the streets of Switzerland!

Didn't happen!

You're full of ****!

**** I tell you!

:lol:
 
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