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Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

Arcana XV said:
Oof, you guys exhaust me. So, once again digging through all the profanity and rhetoric, let's get to the core of your argument here:

You say they're trying to "incite".

Incite what exactly?
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Anger.

They aren't just putting a huge garish Mosque right next to Ground Zero, they're holding the ground breaking ceremony on 9-11, if their intent wasn't clear before it is now.
 
Agent Ferris said:
Anger.

They aren't just putting a huge garish Mosque right next to Ground Zero, they're holding the ground breaking ceremony on 9-11, if their intent wasn't clear before it is now.
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Can you link that claim please?

And what if they did the groundbreaking on 9/11 and dedicated to the victims, had a ceremony for them and a minutes silence and everything that went with it...?
 
j-mac said:
:3oops: It doesn't change the fact that your original post that I took issue with was blown out of the water by the existence of the twelvers.


j-mac
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Ok, then. :)

My original post was for the lolz anyway. So let's get back to the "chaos" theory. What's the purpose of inciting chaos? Ric, in this thread, claims that they're infiltrating Western society and that they're doing so insidiously. If that is true, it sort of contradicts your chaos theory as it would totally sabotage their quiet infiltration strategy.
 
Arcana XV said:
Ok, then. :)

My original post was for the lolz anyway. So let's get back to the "chaos" theory. What's the purpose of inciting chaos? Ric, in this thread, claims that they're infiltrating Western society and that they're doing so insidiously. If that is true, it sort of contradicts your chaos theory as it would totally sabotage their quiet infiltration strategy.
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Nah, I believe it works hand in hand. See the twelvers believe that in order to bring back the Mhadi they must incite total global war, and destruction. What better way to do this, and slay the infidels at the same time than to inflitrate, take over, and impose Islam on the world?


j-mac
 
Winston Smith said:
Except that 9/11 wasn't "unprovoked."
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9-11 was a completely unprovoked attack.

I said we'd never been at war with Islam. We have had problems with Muslims in our history, as well as with Christians, Buddhists, atheists, etc.
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Islam has been at war with us since nearly our founding. The Barbary pirates were attacking us and using Islam as their justification.

Let's talk about the history of the democratic movement in Iran, a movement you say is incompatible with Islam. It started over 100 years ago with the Constitutional Revolution, which instituted democratic reforms based on Western governments. Mossadegh was a veteran of this revolution, the first of its kind in the Middle East. The next half-century was an ongoing struggle between the constitutionalists, who wanted to limit the power of the monarch, and the shahs, who wanted to turn the parliament into a rubber stamp. With the help of Britain and other outside forces, the shahs mostly kept the upper hand until the Majlis elected Mossadegh prime minister based on his broad popular support.
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Ah the hero Mossadeq who overthrew the Iranian Constitutional Monarchy by dissolving parliament through a fraudulent referendum in which he garnered a 99.9% yay vote.

The US and Britain soon began working to undermine Mossadegh through bribery, incitement of violence, and false accusations that he was a communist.
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As he aligned with the Soviets and the Soviet Tudeh party formed in Northern Iran during the Soviet occupation which was only brought to an end through U.S. intervention on Iran's behalf.

As a committed liberal, Mossadegh never curtailed freedom of the press even when it was spreading CIA propaganda. The Shah then tried to dismiss him without the consent of parliament, an action that was not only legally questionable but so contrary to popular opinion that he had to flee the country when it was discovered. It was only with the support of the American and British conspirators that he was able to return and establish a dictatorship, which became notorious for its human rights abuses and suppression of civil liberties.
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What Parliament? There was no Parliament to have consent, because Mossadeq unconstitutionally dissolved Parliament and granted himself the power to make law by decree through a fraudulent referendum in which he garnered a 99.9% yay vote. It was only after Mossadeq dissolved Parliament that the Shah ordered his dismissal.

Mossadegh, for his part, remains a hero of the Green Movement and a symbol of the Iranians' century-old struggle for democracy. To deny his role in the democratic movement is the real historical "revisionism." What's even worse is to deny Muslims' capacity for self-governance when a majority of Iranians are clearly working for exactly that. The mullahs don't represent their views, contrary to what you seem to believe.
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Ya Mossadeq supported democracy by helping to destroy it.

I don't know that there is proof, but it seems likely based on CIA communications, communications from the Turkish military to the State Department,
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What communications? I see no communications listing in that link.

and American troop movements preceeding the coup, among other things.
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So an alleged NATO war game that allegedly took place on Turkish soil with troops who took no part in the coup which the only citation for is a wiki article that cites back to a none reviewable journal published by a leftist Alternative Türkeihilfe somehow equates to evidence of U.S. complicity in the coup?
 
j-mac said:
Nah, I believe it works hand in hand. See the twelvers believe that in order to bring back the Mhadi they must incite total global war, and destruction. What better way to do this, and slay the infidels at the same time than to inflitrate, take over, and impose Islam on the world?


j-mac
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If that is really their intent, they're not thinking very clearly. If a global war breaks out, there's no way any Muslim nation will come out on top, let alone ever have a chance to dominate the world.
 
Jetboogieman said:
Can you link that claim please?
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Tempers are heating up in the New York City area over the plans by the American Society for Muslim Advancement and another Islamic group known as the Cordoba Initiative to build a $100 million, 13-story, Islamic cultural center and mosque just two blocks from Ground Zero. And if that were not inflammatory enough, the plan is to inaugurate the new center on the tenth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks. Another provocative aspect is the fact that the majority of the money will allegedly come from the Saudis. Furthermore, the Imam who helped found the Cordoba initiative after 9/11, Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf, is on record as telling CNN, right after the 9/11 attacks, "U.S. policies were an accessory to the crime that happened. We (the U.S.) have been an accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world. Osama bin Laden was made in the USA."

Rabbi Shmuley Boteach: Is a Giant Mosque at Ground Zero Justified?
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Plans are under way for a Muslim house of worship, topped by a 13-story cultural center with a swimming pool, in a building damaged by the fuselage of a jet flown by extremists into the World Trade Center.

The opening date shall live in infamy: Sept. 11, 2011. The 10th anniversary of the day a hole was punched in the city's heart.

Mosque madness at Ground Zero - NYPOST.com
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And what if they did the groundbreaking on 9/11 and dedicated to the victims, had a ceremony for them and a minutes silence and everything that went with it...?
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We'll see.
 
Arcana XV said:
Dude, you're making my case for me.

This was a popular initiative. Signatures were collected and a referendum vote was held. The results are constitutionally binding. The government DID NOT WANT this law to pass. The PEOPLE of this country always have the final say and the constitution was changed after the popular vote. I may not be happy about the result, personally. But our system of democracy was respected and I have no choice but to accept it. That doesn't change the fact that the people of Switzerland have ALWAYS held more power than their government. I am perfectly free to go out tomorrow and collect signatures to try and reverse the vote. If I'm successful and a majority of people vote for my initiative, the constitution will be changed once again. Do you understand that all it takes in this country to change the constitution is a popular vote?

And you try to tell me that our politicians have any power whatsoever? Now THAT is comedy GOLD! :lol::lol::lol:
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Does the decision of the vote hamper certain Muslim activities in your nation... Yes or no?
 
Agent Ferris said:
We'll see.
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Doesn't seem that anything in those articles suggests FOR SURE it will be 9/11. I didn't now NYPOST was a solid source these days?

If the opening of their article is "A mosque rises over Ground Zero."

Sensationalism much? First of all, its a community centre, with a mosque inside. Second its two blocks away and won't "Rise" Over ground Zero.
 
Jetboogieman said:
Doesn't seem that anything in those articles suggests FOR SURE it will be 9/11. I didn't now NYPOST was a solid source these days?

If the opening of their article is "A mosque rises over Ground Zero."

Sensationalism much? First of all, its a community centre, with a mosque inside. Second its two blocks away and won't "Rise" Over ground Zero.
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A) It's a huge Mosque.

B) You asked for sources I provided sources, if you don't like the sources find a source which contradicts mine. The New York Post is the 13 oldest newspaper in this country and the oldest to be published continously as a daily and it is the 6th largest newspaper in the country.

C) Here's an article from CNN authored by former Congressman Rick Lazio:

Now Imam Rauf wants to build and lead a $100 million, 13-story community center and mosque. It would be constructed on property currently occupied by a historic 150-year-old building that was seriously damaged by the landing gear of one of the hijacked jetliners that flew into the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, and he wants to unveil it on September 11, 2011.

Who's paying for the ground zero Islamic center? - CNN.com
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This is a clear intent to incite especially considering the record of the largest proponent of the Mosque who is on record saying that Bin Laden is "Made in the U.S.A." that "American politics were an accessory to 9-11," and refused to condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization.
 
Arcana XV said:
Not really. It just prevents them from adding a minaret to their Mosques. They're still free to build as many of those as they want.
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It absolutely does send a signal that Muslims aren't wanted... Yes or no?
 
Swiss Muslims are a lot more secular than you might expect, and in an effort to show their friends and neighbors that they didn't represent any kind of threat to Swiss society, many of them voted for the ban.

The people behind the ban effort expended so much time and effort demonizing the Muslims, that many of them wanted to make this concession to allay any fears their countrymen might have.

As it is, the minarets are mainly symbolic, as Swiss noise ordinances make calls to prayer from their heights all but impossible.
 
Agent Ferris said:
A) It's a Huge Mosque
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Community Centre with a mosque inside it...

From your article
Congressman Rick Lazio: Editor's note: Former Rep. Rick Lazio served in the U.S. House of Representatives from 1993 to 2001, representing the 2nd Congressional District. He is the Republican nominee for governor of New York running against Andrew Cuomo, a Democrat, who is the New York state attorney general.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Rick Lazio.
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Wow, how about that, wouldn't opposing the Mosque with lies and hyperbole be a great way to gain votes?

This is a clear intent to incite especially considering the record of the largest proponent of the Mosque who is on record saying that Bin Laden is "Made in the U.S.A." that "American politics were an accessory to 9-11," and refused to condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization.
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I want proof. And not "Jihad Watch"
 
All that needs to be done, is send some gays into the mosque, have them refused entry because they're gay, then the imam will be in violation of federal law. Then, it'll be legal to run his out of town on a rail.
 
apdst said:
All that needs to be done, is send some gays into the mosque, have them refused entry because they're gay, then the imam will be in violation of federal law. Then, it'll be legal to run his out of town on a rail.
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Federal law requires that homosexual folks be granted entrance to religious structures?


TED,
Talking about the mosque portion, not the community center.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Federal law requires that homosexual folks be granted entrance to religious structures?


TED,
Talking about the mosque portion, not the community center.
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Wasn't there a bill passed recently that disallowed churches from discriminating against gays?
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
News to me, which is why I'm asking you for specifics. :lol:
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I researched it, it was a city ordinance that was passed in Memphis that disallowed churches from discriminating against gay worshipers.
 
ric27 said:
It absolutely does send a signal that Muslims aren't wanted... Yes or no?
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No, it absolutely does not. You are being way too simplistic. If we wanted to send out that signal we would ban the building of Mosques. The underlying message to Muslims, if you really must read one into it, is that they are welcome here as long as they make an effort to integrate and blend in. Mosques are welcome as they are non intrusive. Minarets are not, because they clash with the Swiss scenery. I **** you not, this was the argument a lot of people who voted for the ban gave.

Other than that, as TED said, our Muslim population is very secular and integrated (the majority hail from the Balkans, we have very few Muslims of Arabic origin here) and many of them actually voted for the ban. A Swiss-Moroccan lady was on TV explaining that minarets are not a religious requirement and that she voted to ban them because social peace was more important to her.
 
You know, what strikes me most in this thread is that the opposition posts, a lot of which are coming from conservative members, are essentially rooted in strong emotions.

Why is it that when liberals do it, it's called having a bleeding heart, whereas when conservatives do it, it's called common decency or propriety? :lol:
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
You know, what strikes me most in this thread is that the opposition posts, a lot of which are coming from conservative members, are essentially rooted in strong emotions.

Why is it that when liberals do it, it's called having a bleeding heart, whereas when conservatives do it, it's called common decency or propriety? :lol:
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I was thinking the exact same thing. The level of emotional hyperbole in this thread is astounding. I honestly thought only ultra-liberals suffered from this ailment. Boy, was I wrong.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
You know, what strikes me most in this thread is that the opposition posts, a lot of which are coming from conservative members, are essentially rooted in strong emotions.

Why is it that when liberals do it, it's called having a bleeding heart, whereas when conservatives do it, it's called common decency or propriety? :lol:
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The term double standard, coined in 1912, refers to any set of principles containing different provisions for one group of people than for another, typically without a good reason for having said difference. A double standard may take the form of an instance in which certain applications (often of a word or phrase) are perceived as acceptable to be used by one group of people, but are considered unacceptable—taboo—when used by another group.
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Something like this perhaps? :)
 
Arcana XV said:
I was thinking the exact same thing. The level of emotional hyperbole in this thread is astounding. I honestly thought only ultra-liberals suffered from this ailment. Boy, was I wrong.
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I keep half expecting some of them to dart into phone booths and blast out wearing superhero outfits -- CAPTAIN WHATEVER, SAVING THE WORLD FROM THE INTOLERANCE AND BLOOD THIRST OF ISLAM!

:lol:
 
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