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Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

I know nothing about this situation, but on the face of it, I see no valid reason for stopping such a thing.

Depending on multiple things, such as:

Past actions/statements of persons involved, and their explanations for such, if necessary.

Current actions/statements of persons involved.

If a case for potential terrorist support/sympathy by the persons involved could be made (someone will make it anyway, but I mean an actual case), then I could see a possible reason to prevent construction.

But by no means on the basis of the location and type/proposed purpose of building. Edit: If it fits within the current zoning laws, of course...

And even then, I probably wouldn’t always agree with zoning decisions, if the reasons are poor.
 
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Sorry, you are wrong too. Zoning laws and commissions do exist, and they have the final say on what can be built where.


j-mac

Thanks for being super uninformed as usual. They passed the zoning laws (RTFT). There's nothing right now other then public displeasure stopping them from building.
 
I disagree. how about the people don't want it there! Don't they have any say?


j-mac

If this was Communist Russia sure. But it's not. They passed the zoning laws (You really should have read that before as you've gotten dinged at least three times so far on that). They own the land. We have private property laws. Just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean we don't evenly apply our property laws.

In America, as you appear to be uninformed, there are even application of private property laws and freedom of religion. What you are arguing for is suspension of both to stop this mosque. Very, very, very UN-American.

And he said LOGICAL. You not liking it is not a logical reason to stop.
 
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no, because they don't own the property. I spoke with a Muslim man from Turkey last night and it was a very eye opening experience. He assured me that most Muslims hate those nuts who go around killing people as much as we do.

We see a person on TV preaching to kids that the Earth is 6,000 years old. We just say "oh it's one of those fundamentalist Christians, what a bunch of lunatics!"

We see on the news a man killed 10 people with a car bomb in Iraq. We say "Damn Muslims, they are all out to kill us and our way of life!"

Fundamentalist Muslims are the ones killing people, this group doesn't represent Islam but some of you fail to realize that.


Ok, do you support the building of the mosque?


Do you support the man behind this project, and agree with his pleas to bring a more Shria compliant America into being?

We are at war with these Radicals that cheer attacking America on its own soil, killing innocent men, women, and children indiscriminately in the name of Allah, and would at this moment like to place monuments edifying their success in attacking the enemy, (us) by thumbing us in the eye in the building of a mosque 1 block from WTC 1.

Is there no limit to just how far a liberal will bend over in order to please, and befriend this nations enemies?

It's sick IMHO.


j-mac
 
No, they don't have a say. You don't get to discriminate just because you hate Muslims. It's funny how intolerant some so called Christians are. Not very Christian in the least.

Who says anything about me discriminating? I live in beautiful South Carolina, not NYC. I don't hold any position of power, other than my vote.

You want the real intolerance displayed every day here my friend? Take a look at past threads and how anything conservative is immediately, attacked, ridiculed, mocked, and laughed at by liberals here in the most childish of manner, especially Christianity! Then talk about tolerance there pal.


j-mac
 
Thanks for being super uninformed as usual. They passed the zoning laws (RTFT). There's nothing right now other then public displeasure stopping them from building.

Yep, really representatives of the people then aren't they? NOT!


If this was Communist Russia sure. But it's not. They passed the zoning laws (You really should have read that before as you've gotten dinged at least three times so far on that). They own the land. We have private property laws. Just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean we don't evenly apply our property laws.


First off, a Communist state would care less about what the people want, kind of like how you libs are acting about this....hmmmmmm.

Second, We do have property laws, you are correct.....Just ask those involved in the Kelo case.


j-mac
 
Good question, and honestly, no I would not against a Christian church, Jewish temple, or a Hindu/Buddist temple.

There are two Christian Churches already next to it Trinity and St. John's, but this is not the reason I'd vote no.

I don't have numbers; I am not lumping all Muslims together; and generally, I would not vote no to mosques being built anywhere else. Hell, build one right next door to my house, school, job, etc., BUT, don't build one next to Ground Zero.

On this infamous dates, many Muslims were photographed celebrating the collapse of the Twin Towers. Radical Muslims have declared Juhad (sic) on the USA and the west, and we are at war with Al Queda.

Am I being prejudice? ON THIS ISSUE, HELL YES. Ground Zero is scared, and to build a mosque near it would award those idiots who attacked us.

Sorry

"Sacred".

What happened to all of the sacred American Indian burial grounds? That's right, we built right on top of them. Ground Zero is not sacred to me. Besides, they are two blocks away. What would be the actual diameter of the sacred ground zero land? A mile? 10 miles? In Oklahoma City there is a memorial of 168(?) chairs. That Memorial defines the perimeter of the sacred land. What's at ground zero?
 
"Sacred".

What happened to all of the sacred American Indian burial grounds? That's right, we built right on top of them. Ground Zero is not sacred to me. Besides, they are two blocks away. What would be the actual diameter of the sacred ground zero land? A mile? 10 miles? In Oklahoma City there is a memorial of 168(?) chairs. That Memorial defines the perimeter of the sacred land. What's at ground zero?


So it's all about pay back for you eh? Let's see, we did horrible things to the American Indian, so we deserved 9/11 is that right?

I know one other individual that believes that too.....His name? Ward Churchill.


j-mac
 
"Sacred".

What happened to all of the sacred American Indian burial grounds? That's right, we built right on top of them. Ground Zero is not sacred to me. Besides, they are two blocks away. What would be the actual diameter of the sacred ground zero land? A mile? 10 miles? In Oklahoma City there is a memorial of 168(?) chairs. That Memorial defines the perimeter of the sacred land. What's at ground zero?



Obviously. :roll:
 
What you are arguing for is suspension of both to stop this mosque. Very, very, very UN-American.

I would remove Islam from the sphere of religious freedom and would not allow it's practice outside traditional Muslim countries. Its basic, core beliefs make it a threat to anyone and any country that isn't Muslim.
 
Second, We do have property laws, you are correct.....Just ask those involved in the Kelo case.

Good point, let's ask those involved in the Kelo case what they thought. Like Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Thomas Paine, and James Madison who said in the Takings Clause of the the Fifth Amendment, "nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation." It's remarkable how little respect so-called conservatives have for the Constitution whenever it conflicts with their cherished little dogmas about "property ownership." Sorry to break it to you, but the Framers weren't Libertarians.
 
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Or they can do what they are planning and build the Mosque. But seeing as how you are anti-Muslim, you would rather trash the constitution and discriminate solely against Muslims. How very intolerant of you.



This Mosque is not being built by Palestinians last I checked, it was being built by Americans. So what does Palestinians have to do with American Muslims?



So you blame American Muslims for 9/11 and Al-Qaeda? Wow what a stretch.

Hell yes, radicals in this country financial supported radical Islam and called for Jihad again the USA.

Go ahead label me as anti-muslim, I am not anti-muslim except on this issue. Radical Islam has declared war on our nation, so excuse me if I don't embrace them with open arms. The muslims will get their mosque because the constitution guarantees it. And the USA is more tolerant than all Muslim nations. In fact, Bloomberg supports the mosque. Sad that it will be built before the freedom tower.

The fact remains that before 9-11 american muslims were financing radicals. REMEMBER when the US gov't froze their assets after 9-11, oh you forgot about 9-11, and now you choose to make Islam the victim of 9-11. I am not proud of my position, but radical muslims actions on 9-11, african embassy bombings, beheadings, the USS Cole, etc. have swayed my opinion.
 
"Sacred".

What happened to all of the sacred American Indian burial grounds? That's right, we built right on top of them. Ground Zero is not sacred to me. Besides, they are two blocks away. What would be the actual diameter of the sacred ground zero land? A mile? 10 miles? In Oklahoma City there is a memorial of 168(?) chairs. That Memorial defines the perimeter of the sacred land. What's at ground zero?

So, you want to build a parking garage over ground zero? Hell, since the USA descrated the Native American burial grounds, then we deserve what we got. Sacred equals where 2k innocent persons lost their lives because Radical Muslims flew planes into the WTC. The Mosque is guaranteed to be build, again because of our constitiution.
 
Hell yes, radicals in this country financial supported radical Islam and called for Jihad again the USA.

Go ahead label me as anti-muslim, I am not anti-muslim except on this issue. Radical Islam has declared war on our nation, so excuse me if I don't embrace them with open arms. The muslims will get their mosque because the constitution guarantees it. And the USA is more tolerant than all Muslim nations. In fact, Bloomberg supports the mosque. Sad that it will be built before the freedom tower.

The fact remains that before 9-11 american muslims were financing radicals. REMEMBER when the US gov't froze their assets after 9-11, oh you forgot about 9-11, and now you choose to make Islam the victim of 9-11. I am not proud of my position, but radical muslims actions on 9-11, african embassy bombings, beheadings, the USS Cole, etc. have swayed my opinion.

This is a pretty good explanation of jihad I think: What is Jihad?

I have a hard time accepting that there are going to be a lot of people using that mosque who have no problem with what happened on 9/11. I think they are going to look up at that empty sky and feel a certain amount of pride about it. I find it hard to truly wrap my head around the concept of the "peaceful" Muslim or at least peaceful Islam. I try to tell myself that I am wrong but with only half success.
 
Hell yes, radicals in this country financial supported radical Islam and called for Jihad again the USA.

You used the key word, RADICALS. RADICALS are not a majority in America.

Go ahead label me as anti-muslim, I am not anti-muslim except on this issue. Radical Islam has declared war on our nation, so excuse me if I don't embrace them with open arms. The muslims will get their mosque because the constitution guarantees it. And the USA is more tolerant than all Muslim nations. In fact, Bloomberg supports the mosque. Sad that it will be built before the freedom tower.

When you start labeling the majority of American Muslims as terrorist supporters, yes, you are anti-Muslim because the majority of Muslims in American DO NOT support what happened on 9/11. Muslim American families also lost loved ones in 9/11.

The fact remains that before 9-11 american muslims were financing radicals. REMEMBER when the US gov't froze their assets after 9-11, oh you forgot about 9-11, and now you choose to make Islam the victim of 9-11. I am not proud of my position, but radical muslims actions on 9-11, african embassy bombings, beheadings, the USS Cole, etc. have swayed my opinion.

Again, the majority of Muslim Americans did NOT finance terrorists and they did NOT support the attacks on 9/11.

You are anti-Muslim because you choose to let your hatred for Muslims overwrite the belief in the constitution.
 
I would remove Islam from the sphere of religious freedom and would not allow it's practice outside traditional Muslim countries. Its basic, core beliefs make it a threat to anyone and any country that isn't Muslim.

And yet again, I'm glad the majority of people do NOT think like you. Your hatred in your comments is no better than the terrorists intolerance.
 
This is a pretty good explanation of jihad I think: What is Jihad?

I have a hard time accepting that there are going to be a lot of people using that mosque who have no problem with what happened on 9/11. I think they are going to look up at that empty sky and feel a certain amount of pride about it. I find it hard to truly wrap my head around the concept of the "peaceful" Muslim or at least peaceful Islam. I try to tell myself that I am wrong but with only half success.

You might want to check your source, which is also where this article is from the same writer:

Christian Compassion for the Disabled

Still believe that he has it correct about Jihad? I don't think so. He has it twisted and comments taken out of text like many people do when they try to demonize an entire religion.
 
the hysteria some conservatives are experiencing over this is hilarious!
 
And yet again, I'm glad the majority of people do NOT think like you. Your hatred in your comments is no better than the terrorists intolerance.

I believe, Muslim immigrants are part of a plot to take over the west. We have quarantine them. Keep them in their countries, don't accept them in our nation as immigrants. The fact is, Islam declares that the Koran is perfect and can't be altered. And if it can't be altered, the plain reading of the text calls for Jihad against all unbelievers.

Btw- Why don't you address the state of Muslim immigration and birth in Western Europe, with particular attention to France and the UK? Then tell me that there's nothing to be concerned about.
 
A) Every major school of Islamic dogma is inherently violent and oppressive, the Ulama has ruled through Ijma in every single one of the five major schools of Islamic Fiqh that apostasy, adultery, and sodomy are capital offenses (sodomy may sometimes be punished by corporal punishment) premarital sex is a crime to be punished by lashing, women receive less inheritence to men of equal relation to the deceased, etc. These are the only accepted view in any of the major Islamic sects. Mainstream Islam and liberalism are incompatible. That does not mean every single Muslim believes that but that speaks nothing to the position of Islam itself. It's like using a pro-choice Catholic to defend the Catholic Church on their anti-abortion stance, one says nothing about the other.

B) Just ask yourself this, why out of the 365 days of the year did they decide to hold the ground breaking ceremony on 9-11 of all days? Sorry but their intent was clearly to incite and while they have the right to have their Mosque we have the right as a free society to protest their violent and oppressive ideological dogma. As I said they have the right to the mosque, but anyone defending the group itself can GFTS's.
 
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The Muslims are simply exploiting an available weakness. That is why they are a risk, Islam calls for the subjugation and conversion of the world, by all means, including lying, murder and terror. Islam is the poster child of religious intolerance. When they have the power, they prohibit or forbid the practice of Christianity or Judaism, and still execute people of "pagan" religions. If you were a Muslim and and choose not to be Muslim any longer, Islamic law still calls for your execution.

So as much as we may wish to be PC tolerant, every Muslim is a potential terrorist.
 
And yet again, I'm glad the majority of people do NOT think like you. Your hatred in your comments is no better than the terrorists intolerance.

Your ignorance about the lack of religious freedom in so many Muslim dominated countries shows you have no knowledge of the facts.
 
I always love how the people most vehemently opposed to Islam are those who have come into contact with it the least. I wonder how many eeevil Mahslems ric27 has befriended or even talked to in his lifetime...

EDIT: I know these aren't the same posters, but they do come from relatively the same camp and so I thought this was pretty funny:

texmaster said:
Your ignorance about the lack of religious freedom in so many Muslim dominated countries shows you have no knowledge of the facts.

ric27 said:
I believe, Muslim immigrants are part of a plot to take over the west. We have quarantine them. Keep them in their countries, don't accept them in our nation as immigrants.

Especially in light of the facts:

Juan Cole said:
Finally, forbidding the building of a mosque in New York is inconsistent with the ideals of the Founding Generation of the United States of America, who explicitly mentioned Islam among the cases when they spoke of religious freedom:

‘George Washington asked in a March 24, 1784, letter to his aide Tench Tilghman that some craftsmen be hired for him: “If they are good workmen, they may be of Assia, [sic] Africa, or Europe. They may be Mahometans, [Muslims] Jews, or Christian of any Sect – or they may be Atheists …”

Ben Franklin, the founding father of many important institutions in Philadelphia, a key diplomat and a framer of the US Constitution, wrote in his Autobiography concerning a non-denominational place of public preaching he helped found “so that even if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send a missionary to preach Mohammedanism to us, he would find a pulpit at his service.” Here is the whole quote:

‘And it being found inconvenient to assemble in the open air, subject to its inclemencies, the building of a house to meet in was no sooner propos’d, and persons appointed to receive contributions, but sufficient sums were soon receiv’d to procure the ground and erect the building, which was one hundred feet long and seventy broad, about the size of Westminster Hall; and the work was carried on with such spirit as to be finished in a much shorter time than could have been expected. Both house and ground were vested in trustees, expressly for the use of any preacher of any religious persuasion who might desire to say something to the people at Philadelphia; the design in building not being to accommodate any particular sect, but the inhabitants in general; so that even if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send a missionary to preach Mohammedanism to us, he would find a pulpit at his service. ‘

Thomas Jefferson wrote in his 1777 Draft of a Bill for Religious Freedom:

‘ that our civil rights have no dependance on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry; that therefore the proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument, unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion, is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages to which, in common with his fellow citizens, he has a natural right . . . ‘

As I observed on another occasion, it was Jefferson’s more bigotted opponents in the Virginia legislature who brought up the specter of Muslims and atheists being elected to it in the world Jefferson was trying to create. He was undeterred by such considerations, which should tell us something.

I also once pointed out that John Locke had already advocated civil rights for non-Christians in his Letter on Toleration:

‘ Thus if solemn assemblies, observations of festivals, public worship be permitted to any one sort of professors [believers], all these things ought to be permitted to the Presbyterians, Independents, Anabaptists, Arminians, Quakers, and others, with the same liberty. Nay, if we may openly speak the truth, and as becomes one man to another, neither Pagan nor Mahometan, nor Jew, ought to be excluded from the civil rights of the commonwealth because of his religion. The Gospel commands no such thing. ‘

Here is Jefferson again: “The most sacred of the duties of a government [is] to do equal and impartial justice to all its citizens.”
– Thomas Jefferson, note in Destutt de Tracy, “Political Economy,” 1816.

Or: “The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”
– Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

The US Senate, full of founding fathers, and the Adams government, approved the Treaty with Tripoli (now Libya) of 1797, which included this language:

“As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”

The treaty is important for showing the mindset of the fashioners of the American system. ‘

And here is a final point for Ms. Palin and her ilk to consider. The United States was born of a war against the British crown, the state religion of which was the Anglican Church. Those Anglicans who insisted on swearing allegiance to King George III were viewed as the enemy. And, the British custom of ‘establishing’ the Anglican church in many of the colonies, i.e. making it the state religion, was renounced by the revolutionaries. But there was no question that apolitical Anglicans could practice their religion freely, found Anglican (“Episcopalian”) churches anywhere they liked (even in places where the Americans and British had waged fierce battles, like New York), and even go to Britain to arrange for the training of Episcopalian/Anglican priests.

There is more. In 1787, Samuel Provoost was made the Episcopalian bishop of New York. He had been a Whig and a supporter of the Revolution even though an Anglican. In 1789, the US Senate made him its chaplain!

So not only did the Founding Generation not harbor a grudge against the religion of the British Crown (which had tried to crush them), they were perfectly willing to give non-Tory Anglicans high official positions in the new Republic. It would be as though the the current chaplain of the Senate were a former al-Qaeda member who had broken with Bin Laden and declared allegiance to the United States.

That is, the September 11 attacks were not the work of a foreign head of state supported by his state religion. No Muslim government supports al-Qaeda. But even if the attacks had been of that sort, the Founding Generation had already made a key distinction between religious practice and political loyalty, and had granted freedom of religion to non-Tory Anglicans.

http://www.juancole.com/
 
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Your ignorance about the lack of religious freedom in so many Muslim dominated countries shows you have no knowledge of the facts.

How ironic that you talk about lack of religious freedoms in Muslim dominated countries all the while thanking posters who support lack of religious freedom in the United States for Muslims by denying them the right to build their Mosque.

Thank you for showing YOUR religious intolerance.
 
I always love how the people most vehemently opposed to Islam are those who have come into contact with it the least.

And I always love how readily people are so willing to be a perfect example for the phrase "Assumption is the mother of all **** ups"

I wonder how many eeevil Mahslems ric27 has befriended or even talked to in his lifetime...

So ric27 can't look at the facts and support his conclusion without knowing how many Muslims? How many should he know before you allow him to perform an argument and support it with factual data? :roll:
 
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