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Thread: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    That remark was a tongue-in-cheek. I kinda dispelled, the myth of terrorism because of poverty a couple of pages ago *I believe it was on this thread*
    Obviously, the West has evolved quite a bit and the Arabs were only recently dragged into the modern world and for the sake of the good Muslims, you might know, is that there is a reformation that leads to an evolution in Islam and the rise of moderates in the mainstream.

    How likely is such an Islamic reformation?
    It's possible and in fact is already underway.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    He fails to understand that the global left has already thrown in their lot with the Islamists. For his movement to gain any traction, they need to associate themselves with true liberals and moderates in the west instead of the already profoundly illiberal global left.
    If by "Islamists" you mean Al Qaeda and similar groups, you couldn't be more mistaken. Liberal Muslims and liberal Westerners share a distaste for Western imperialism. That's going to be a given in any kind of reformist or democratic movement. Al Qaeda shares it as well, but that doesn't mean they're aligned with liberals of any sort. They correctly believe that military conflict between Islam and the West will weaken the reformists, which is one of the reasons they try to provoke us.

    The worst misconception we can cling to is the idea that everyone is either with us or with the terrorists. Most Muslims don't want to be bossed around by either party. But until we learn to accept that, we'll always be fighting people like the Iraqi insurgents we mistakenly labeled "Islamofascists" when they were nothing of the kind.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    It's possible and in fact is already underway.
    Can't take your article seriously it lists Indonesia as "one of the most autocratic anti-democratic regimes in the world," when in fact next to Tunisia, it is one of the most liberal Muslim majority countries and the only one which is listed as completely free by freedomhouse.org.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Can't take your article seriously it lists Indonesia as "one of the most autocratic anti-democratic regimes in the world," when in fact next to Tunisia, it is one of the most liberal Muslim majority countries and the only one which is listed as completely free by freedomhouse.org.
    It was written before Suharto resigned. If you'd read it at the time, you'd probably have scoffed at the idea that Indonesia would ever be free or liberal.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Of course, I'm assuming you wouldn't have thrown in with Suharto just because he was a US ally.
    Last edited by Winston Smith; 07-30-10 at 05:12 PM.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith;105 and here's why8887771
    It's possible and in fact is already underway.
    Underway...where??

    Mister Winston Smith - We would ALL like to see an Islamic reformation too. Unfortunately, it ain't going to happen and here's why....

    Its theologically impossible to change the Koran (though it could be argued its possible to plus and subtract hadith from the 'good' and 'bad' pile). Islam is a fixed state religion, irrevocably frozen in its form. Change it and its no longer Islam - and since Islam is perfect and literally true then why would Muslims want to change it?

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Underway...where??

    Mister Winston Smith - We would ALL like to see an Islamic reformation too. Unfortunately, it ain't going to happen and here's why....

    Its theologically impossible to change the Koran (though it could be argued its possible to plus and subtract hadith from the 'good' and 'bad' pile). Islam is a fixed state religion, irrevocably frozen in its form. Change it and its no longer Islam - and since Islam is perfect and literally true then why would Muslims want to change it?
    I don't think that's necessarily true. There are people who seem to have a lot invested in believing it is true...and not all of them are Muslims.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    I don't think that's necessarily true. There are people who seem to have a lot invested in believing it is true...and not all of them are Muslims.
    We can consider their culture to be backwards by our standards. Understand, by their standards they may consider ours to be decadent and without moral values (their values). So they consider ours to be inferior. Ultimately, there isn't a universal, objective right or wrong culture. The reference point is always subjective.

    If different cultures can find a way to coexist peacefully, then awesome. The issue arises when one culture has an irreducible conflict with another and they cannot co-exist.

    As an example, any culture or belief system which requires everyone to conform, whether they want to or not, is inherently in conflict with every other culture or belief that does not want to conform.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    `
    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Underway...where??

    Mister Winston Smith - We would ALL like to see an Islamic reformation too. Unfortunately, it ain't going to happen and here's why....

    Its theologically impossible to change the Koran (though it could be argued its possible to plus and subtract hadith from the 'good' and 'bad' pile). Islam is a fixed state religion, irrevocably frozen in its form. Change it and its no longer Islam - and since Islam is perfect and literally true then why would Muslims want to change it?
    The same is true with respect to Christianity and the Bible, and yet somehow Christians managed to change without changing their holy texts.

    Muslims in many places throughout the world have managed to live in peace and harmony with their pagan brothers and sisters. Their very way of life is a testament to the fact that you don't know what you're talking about.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    `Their very way of life is a testament to the fact that you don't know what you're talking about.
    They ain't "just like us". Life itself has minimal value. Everyone wants better for their children? Right. I suppose honor killings that place the perceived honor of the family 100 rungs up on the ladder above human life fits that mould.

    Slain Texas Sisters Amina and Sarah Said: One Year Later and Still No Justice - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com

    A brief synopsis...

    An Islamic cab driver brutally murdered his two teenage daughters because they committed the unspeakable act of dating Westerners. The girls had fled with their mother, but their brother, who remained loyal to their father, convinced them to return and that all would be forgiven and well. The day they returned, the father took the girls out in his cab, ostensibly for an evening meal and shot both girls. The one, he killed quickly, but the other was tortured by several well placed gunshots that inflicted incredible pain without death.

    Oh, and the girls were molested by their daddy when they were toddlers. Family values, huh?

    This is a culture that is stuck in the 600's AD. It is brutal, barbaric, and has no modern sense of human life or any adherence to anything resembling Western or Christian values. It is indeed an alien culture, and those that want to bunny-hug them and ignore the facts do so not only at their peril but at our peril as well.

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