Page 66 of 75 FirstFirst ... 16566465666768 ... LastLast
Results 651 to 660 of 748

Thread: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

  1. #651
    Sage
    ric27's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Last Seen
    06-15-17 @ 02:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    7,539

    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    Your lack of understanding of who your real enemies are is astounding.

    Neither wealth nor education are a guarantee that a person will not get involved in international terrorism. In fact, the opposite seems to be true. The most dangerous international terrorists have a high education and are reasonably to extremely wealthy. Osama Bin Laden ring a bell? Also, many of the 9/11 perpetrators came from well-off families. The underwear bomber comes from a rich Nigerian family. How do you explain this, genius? According to your theory, these guys should be praising Allah for their many pecuniary blessings and never, ever have an evil thought cross their minds.
    That remark was a tongue-in-cheek. I kinda dispelled, the myth of terrorism because of poverty a couple of pages ago *I believe it was on this thread*
    Obviously, the West has evolved quite a bit and the Arabs were only recently dragged into the modern world and for the sake of the good Muslims, you might know, is that there is a reformation that leads to an evolution in Islam and the rise of moderates in the mainstream.

    How likely is such an Islamic reformation?

  2. #652
    Sage
    Arcana XV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Geneva, Switzerland and Rochester, NY
    Last Seen
    10-22-17 @ 10:25 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    6,412

    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    That remark was a tongue-in-cheek. I kinda dispelled, the myth of terrorism because of poverty a couple of pages ago *I believe it was on this thread*
    Obviously, the West has evolved quite a bit and the Arabs were only recently dragged into the modern world and for the sake of the good Muslims, you might know, is that there is a reformation that leads to an evolution in Islam and the rise of moderates in the mainstream.

    How likely is such an Islamic reformation?
    Such a reformation is actually quite likely. It might, however, come in a form that you, as a self-declared "very conservative" individual, might not like at all.

    According to this Muslim author, and I actually tend to agree with most of his proposed strategy, the solution is for the Muslim left to unite, organize and obtain more political power and influence than the Muslim right currently holds.

    He explains it all quite well in this series of opinion pieces, this one being the most relevant to your question:

    The making of the Muslim left | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

    You'll find links to the other articles in the series at the end of this piece. They're really quite interesting.
    Last edited by Arcana XV; 07-30-10 at 06:40 AM.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

  3. #653
    Sage
    j-mac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    South Carolina
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    30,343

    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    Right. But the point is it's much easier to do that in a free, secular society than in an oppressive and/or deeply religious one. Look at the North Koreans. Weakened and broken by fear, their ability to change their fate is minimal.

    If that were truly the case Europe would look much different today....People have the ability to change, and others have the responsibility to aid in freedom, regardless of what those agents of communism try to preach, or call them. Man was intended to be a free person, with free thought, and free will. And what makes a country exceptional is whether or not they adhere, and promote that concept.


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

  4. #654
    Sage
    Arcana XV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Geneva, Switzerland and Rochester, NY
    Last Seen
    10-22-17 @ 10:25 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    6,412

    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    If that were truly the case Europe would look much different today....People have the ability to change, and others have the responsibility to aid in freedom, regardless of what those agents of communism try to preach, or call them. Man was intended to be a free person, with free thought, and free will. And what makes a country exceptional is whether or not they adhere, and promote that concept.


    j-mac
    The European culture is different. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Europe had the benefit of a strong intellectual elite that often was forced to go underground but still managed to reach the general population and motivate them into action or rebellion. Europeans have a history of being warriors and conquerors. At one point, Europeans had colonies on all continents. The Enlightenment philosophers who spread the very ideas you speak of were European. Culture is fate. What does North Korea have by comparison? A much more docile population that easily fell prey to an oppressive cult of personality. A society that squashes individuality and free thought in all forms. I really don't see how they can get out of this one without outside intervention. I honestly don't believe they have it in them.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

  5. #655
    free market communist
    Gardener's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Last Seen
    09-30-17 @ 12:27 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    26,661

    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    The European culture is different. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Europe had the benefit of a strong intellectual elite that often was forced to go underground but still managed to reach the general population and motivate them into action or rebellion. Europeans have a history of being warriors and conquerors. At one point, Europeans had colonies on all continents. The Enlightenment philosophers who spread the very ideas you speak of were European. Culture is fate. What does North Korea have by comparison? A much more docile population that easily fell prey to an oppressive cult of personality. A society that squashes individuality and free thought in all forms. I really don't see how they can get out of this one without outside intervention. I honestly don't believe they have it in them.
    One of the classic distinctions between liberalism and conservatism involves attitudes towards social order vs. social justice. The European enlightenment fueled the liberal notion of social justice so thoroughly that the very value systems of the west incorporated social justice as a key element of their operating system. North Korea, like many other Asian societies, places a higher value on social order, so is more resistant to change.

    The issue of social justice vs. social order is also key to understanding the issues faced due to the intersection of Islam and the west in that the establishment of a mosque at ground zero represents a virulently conservative ideology in terms of the value of social order. Islamism is all ABOUT social order, as it micromanages peoples lives down to the iota, severely restricts freedom of expression, and imposes rigid expectations for behavior based upon the need to preserve such order. This is what so many on the left fail to understand when they indulge in their blather of apologia in that they are lending support to the very most conservative ideology imaginable, an ideology that places such a high value on social order that it completely subjugates the individual in terms of basic rights. Islamism is totalitarianism, and like the totalitarianism of an individual like our North Korean nutjob, needs to understood for what it is.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  6. #656
    Hippie Hater
    texmaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Dallas TEXAS
    Last Seen
    08-20-15 @ 01:17 AM
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    3,969

    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    Such a reformation is actually quite likely. It might, however, come in a form that you, as a self-declared "very conservative" individual, might not like at all.

    According to this Muslim author, and I actually tend to agree with most of his proposed strategy, the solution is for the Muslim left to unite, organize and obtain more political power and influence than the Muslim right currently holds.

    He explains it all quite well in this series of opinion pieces, this one being the most relevant to your question:

    The making of the Muslim left | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

    You'll find links to the other articles in the series at the end of this piece. They're really quite interesting.
    So you can't point to anything tangible, just a few articles with no real backing.

    That is his point.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

    John Adams

  7. #657
    free market communist
    Gardener's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Last Seen
    09-30-17 @ 12:27 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    26,661

    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    So you can't point to anything tangible, just a few articles with no real backing.

    That is his point.
    I find one aspect of his strategy particularly miscalculated. When he says:


    "I recommend creating a viable and well organised Muslim left. It would be an intra-religious movement as opposed to a universalist one (though obviously it doesn't shun allies). It would be a cousin of the international left, but in a Muslim garb. "


    He fails to understand that the global left has already thrown in their lot with the Islamists. For his movement to gain any traction, they need to associate themselves with true liberals and moderates in the west instead of the already profoundly illiberal global left.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  8. #658
    Shankmasta Killa
    TacticalEvilDan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Western NY and Geneva, CH
    Last Seen
    08-30-15 @ 04:51 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    10,444

    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    So you can't point to anything tangible, just a few articles with no real backing.

    That is his point.
    Ric's question was, "How likely is such an Islamic reformation?"

    How, exactly, does one point to tangible evidence when responding to a request for a prediction of future events, gesture to one's crystal ball?

    Last edited by TacticalEvilDan; 07-30-10 at 01:20 PM.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  9. #659
    Sage
    Arcana XV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Geneva, Switzerland and Rochester, NY
    Last Seen
    10-22-17 @ 10:25 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    6,412

    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    One of the classic distinctions between liberalism and conservatism involves attitudes towards social order vs. social justice. The European enlightenment fueled the liberal notion of social justice so thoroughly that the very value systems of the west incorporated social justice as a key element of their operating system. North Korea, like many other Asian societies, places a higher value on social order, so is more resistant to change.

    The issue of social justice vs. social order is also key to understanding the issues faced due to the intersection of Islam and the west in that the establishment of a mosque at ground zero represents a virulently conservative ideology in terms of the value of social order. Islamism is all ABOUT social order, as it micromanages peoples lives down to the iota, severely restricts freedom of expression, and imposes rigid expectations for behavior based upon the need to preserve such order. This is what so many on the left fail to understand when they indulge in their blather of apologia in that they are lending support to the very most conservative ideology imaginable, an ideology that places such a high value on social order that it completely subjugates the individual in terms of basic rights. Islamism is totalitarianism, and like the totalitarianism of an individual like our North Korean nutjob, needs to understood for what it is.
    I can agree with you on most of that. Islam as practiced in the strictest sense is an ultra-conservative, illiberal way of life. I do, however, see more hope of a reformation, especially in the West by liberal Muslims such as our friend Laila and the guy who wrote these articles, than I see any hope whatsoever for the North Koreans who are locked inside that hell hole with no way out, not physically nor intellectually.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

  10. #660
    Sage
    Arcana XV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Geneva, Switzerland and Rochester, NY
    Last Seen
    10-22-17 @ 10:25 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    6,412

    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    He fails to understand that the global left has already thrown in their lot with the Islamists. For his movement to gain any traction, they need to associate themselves with true liberals and moderates in the west instead of the already profoundly illiberal global left.
    Yes, but liberal Muslims have not really become as organized as the Islamists have. Do you not think, perhaps, that if they manage to fraction the Muslim community into a liberal/conservative dynamic that they might get somewhere and that maybe then the "illiberal global left" will ally itself with them?
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

Page 66 of 75 FirstFirst ... 16566465666768 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •