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Thread: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

  1. #631
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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Correct.

    Hopefully, you will also remember this next time some dunderhead offers the de rigueur little mantra so essential to the apologist's arsenal that terrorism is the last resort of a poor, desperate people.
    You will never see me write anything to the contrary. Unlike many here who claim to have "studied" Islam and think that this religious knowledge gives them any kind of insight into the inner workings of the terrorist mind, I've actually looked into the many research papers conducted by international terrorism experts. Neither devout faith, nor lack of education, nor wealth or lack thereof are any kind of indication whatsoever that someone will turn to violent terrorism. I think that's what makes these guys so dangerous and why every time one of them tries to carry out an attack they take us completely by surprise, because more often than not, we would have never suspected that particular individual. The fact that they are impossible to profile is probably what makes the likes of ric claim that every Muslim is a potential terrorist.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Nah, what is astounding is that there are those here that will continually make excuses, and or minimize terrorism, and the terrorists that carry out these evil acts on innocents.

    Isn't that right Arcana?

    j-mac
    If you think I'm one of those people, you're sorely mistaken. I despise terrorism in all its forms. I don't care if you're oppressed, tortured or if your entire family gets wiped out that does not give you the right to murder innocent people. Lash out at the government or the army that is oppressing you and leave civilians alone.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

  3. #633
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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Nah, what is astounding is that there are those here that will continually make excuses, and or minimize terrorism, and the terrorists that carry out these evil acts on innocents.

    Isn't that right Arcana?

    j-mac
    There are many here who fit your description.

    Arcana is not one of them.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  4. #634
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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    There are many here who fit your description.

    Arcana is not one of them.
    Thanks. I think what got him confused is when I said I couldn't fault someone for having political opinions, which probably led him to believe that I agreed with Imam Rauf's opinion. I suppose I could have worded that a little better. Even if I were to agree with him that US foreign policy influences international terrorism (i'm actually not sure about that) , that in now way would mean that I think going after civilian targets is acceptable.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    If you think I'm one of those people, you're sorely mistaken. I despise terrorism in all its forms. I don't care if you're oppressed, tortured or if your entire family gets wiped out that does not give you the right to murder innocent people. Lash out at the government or the army that is oppressing you and leave civilians alone.
    Ok, fair enough. And I am sorry if I insulted you. On boards like this it is hard sometimes to discern where an individual stands completely. I thank you for clearing that up.

    However, I think that in this day and age, it isn't like we don't have centuries of actions, and written word to go by. Certain Muslims have been at war with whomever fails to convert to Islam. And this is called for, at least as far as I understand, by invite, then death if you don't. How is that a religion of peace?


    j-mac
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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    What references when? Where is the citation that we were engaged in a war which killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims prior to 9-11? Where is the citation for the coup that we are responsible for which resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands of Muslims prior to 9-11? And where is the citation pointing to the blockade which resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Muslims prior to 9-11? How about any lengthy blockade that the U.S. has engaged in since the blockade of Cuba?
    We killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis with war and economic sanctions. The Iranian coup led to dictatorship under the Shah, the ex-Nazi prime minister who replaced Mossadegh, and SAVAK, which tortured and killed innocent people using German techniques from WWII. We supported this regime instead of Mossadegh’s because Iran under Mossadegh would have been a neutral power in the Cold War—not, as you claim, a Russian ally. There is in fact no evidence that Mossadegh was aligned with the Soviets. The accusation is an ancient myth promoted by the CIA as part of the effort to depose him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    How do economic sanctions kill anyone? The U.N. neither banned medical or food supplies to Iraq. The oil embargo was the direct result of the actions Saddam Hussein not the U.S. or anyone else.
    Everything was banned unless it was imported as part of the Oil for Food program. Iraq was able to import less than $200 worth of food per person per year, around half the per capita income of Haiti, which led to significant malnutrition. The US also placed holds on medical supplies, destroyed water and sewage facilities, and withheld the chlorine needed to provide clean water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris
    Apparently not conducting trade with a certain country equates to murder in your backwards world.
    Obviously, it was not simply a matter of our refusing to trade with Iraq. The sanctions prohibited Iraq from trading with anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris
    Oh and FYI those statistics regarding the amount of deaths resulting from the embargoe were provided by the ****ing Baathists running Iraq.
    Wrong yet again. They were confirmed by multiple sources, including an extensive survey conducted by UNICEF and the World Health Organization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Um Saddam found the money to build himself lavish palaces, it's not our fault Saddam cared about himself more than he cared about the welfare of his own people, the sanctions blocked neither food or medical supplies.
    Actually, Saddam is credited with bringing Iraq some of the highest living standards and best civilian infrastructure in the region, particularly in the area of health care. Iraq was close to being a First World country at that time. Everything changed with the sanctions, which devastated Iraq’s economy beyond the point where Saddam could have repaired it. Indeed, they were calculated to do so in order to make the Iraqis revolt against him. This is the definition of terrorism—an attack on civilians for political ends.

    And, again, they did block food and medical supplies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris
    Furthermore; if Saddam had complied with the U.N. the sanctions would not have been imposed in the first place. Seriously place blame where blame is due IE on the shoulders of the man who ignored international law and enaged in a war of conquest against Kuwait and refused to abide with the terms of the armistice.
    Unlikely. US officials under both Bush 41 and Clinton stated that the purpose of the sanctions was to remove Saddam and that they would be in place until he was gone. Nothing he did with regard to UN resolutions would have changed that.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Ok, fair enough. And I am sorry if I insulted you. On boards like this it is hard sometimes to discern where an individual stands completely. I thank you for clearing that up.

    However, I think that in this day and age, it isn't like we don't have centuries of actions, and written word to go by. Certain Muslims have been at war with whomever fails to convert to Islam. And this is called for, at least as far as I understand, by invite, then death if you don't. How is that a religion of peace?


    j-mac
    No offense taken at all. I've been on political message boards long enough to know that sometimes wires get crossed.

    Islam can be a religion of peace as easily as it can be a religion of war. I think pretty much all religions can be used for either purpose. How each individual chooses to practice their faith greatly depends on the surrounding culture. Msgt on this board often says that culture is fate. I may not agree with everything he says, but on this he is spot on. Culture really is fate. Our upbringing, our culture and traditions are what make us what we are. It's very hard to escape that baggage.
    Last edited by Arcana XV; 07-29-10 at 01:43 PM.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    We killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis with war and economic sanctions.
    This is incorrect information.


    j-mac
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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    No offense taken at all. I've been on political message boards long enough to know that sometimes wires get crossed.

    Islam can be a religion of peace as easily as it can be a religion of war. I think pretty much all religions can be used for either purpose. How each individual chooses to practice their faith greatly depends on the surrounding culture. Msgt on this board often says that culture is fate. I may not agree with everything he says, but on this he is spot on. Culture really is fate. Our upbringing, our culture and traditions are what make us what we are. It's very hard to escape that baggage.

    Fate can only be determined through our own actions. We put fate into being.


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Fate can only be determined through our own actions. We put fate into being.


    j-mac
    Right. But the point is it's much easier to do that in a free, secular society than in an oppressive and/or deeply religious one. Look at the North Koreans. Weakened and broken by fear, their ability to change their fate is minimal.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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