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Thread: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    They weren't killed by the people in the Trade Center. They were killed by our wars, coups, and blockades.
    Your silly claims, aside, please explain why you consider the people in the trade center as valid targets to be murdered.

    You justified the terrorism that killed them through this bizarre claim that they provoked such a response, so please establish the connection between these people and this supposed "hundreds of thousands" killed.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    By current Islam standards he can be seen as nothing other than a moderate. Could he be even more moderate? Sure. No doubt.

    Hey, by my atheist standards, he's a nutjob. All religious people are.
    Yes, that's my point. By current ISLAM standards, anybody who isn't a fire breathing dragon preaching violent Jihad is called a "moderate". Unfortunately for us, we are calling those who share the same goals as the violent jihadists of ending our way of life "moderate", too, and simply for favoring a different approach to the goal.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    I suppose, if you don't consider killing hundreds of thousands of people a provocation.
    The U.S. didn't kill hundreds of thousands of Muslims prior to 9-11.

    Those are two very different assertions.
    No they are one and the same.


    The constitutional monarchy had evolved in a direction more monarchic than constitutional. Mossadegh dissolved the parliament not in order to rule by decree, but rather to establish a new parliament chosen through fair, open elections. It was a mistake, but arguably a legitimate move in a time of war.
    Mossadeq dissolved parliament because Parliament refused him direct control over the military, upon dissolving parliament he began ruling by decree.

    This is what's sometimes referred to as a "badge of ignorance," a false claim so outdated and overused that there's no excuse for it any more. Mossadegh's crime wasn't alignment with Russia.
    And yet he did align with the Soviets.

    It was his nationalist policy of non-alignment
    No he began accepting arms from the Soviets.

    and his effort to free Iran of undue influence from both Russia and the West. The idea that he was a communist is a myth created by the CIA, which engaged in false flag violence as part of its black propaganda operation against him.
    I never claimed he was a Communist but that he aligned himself with Communists.

    Wrong again. Mossadegh dissolved the Parliament after the first attempt to dismiss him had failed. True, he had already taken the referendum, but this was only because he'd learned of the plot against him.
    He dissolved parliament through a fraudulent referendum and started ruling by decree, and you want us to believe he supported democracy.

    The Shah did not dismiss Mossadeq until AFTER he had already dissolved parliament.

    This attitude toward Mossadegh in general is a good example of how Americans react to Muslim democracy when they actually see it trying to get started.
    lol it was already started until Mossadeq dissolved parliament through a fraudulent referendum and started ruling by decree.

    It's a nice word and a good pretext for intervention, but it goes right out the window as soon as it conflicts with oil interests.
    Dissolving parliament through a fraudulent referendum and ruling by decree =/= democracy.

    Iraq is another example. Their government was established under our watch and trumpeted by us as a legitimate democracy, yet we've constantly interfered with it and even attacked some parties when they opposed our ideas on oil rights. Most of the enemies we've fought in Iraq weren't terrorists but just people who wanted to govern themselves. It would be the same way if we went into Iran now. We claim to support the reformers (even though they don't want our help), but if it came to a choice between democracy and oil, we'd do our best to crush them as well.
    Iran was the most liberal democratic government in the ME until Mossadegh dissolved parliament through a fraudulent referendum and started ruling by decree causing a reactionary backlash by the royalists.

    Of particular interest is The CIA station chief's report that "our boys in Ankara did it."
    A) "Our boys" refers to who exactly? This in no way demonstrates that they were acting on the directives of the U.S. or that they had U.S. financial or logistical support, it could simply mean that they were a pro-American faction.

    B) Again the sources listed in the wiki article is a book which can not be accessed and a youtube video.


    There's also the communication from the Turkish military to the US embassy informing them when the coup would take place.
    Source?



    It's a factor, along with the station chief's admission and the history of American intervention in Iran, Guatemala, the Congo, etc. It's very much part of a pattern.[/QUOTE]

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    By current Islam standards he can be seen as nothing other than a moderate. Could he be even more moderate? Sure. No doubt.

    Hey, by my atheist standards, he's a nutjob. All religious people are.
    If he is Moderate, am I like Ultra moderate Muslim?


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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Yes, that's my point. By current ISLAM standards, anybody who isn't a fire breathing dragon preaching violent Jihad is called a "moderate". Unfortunately for us, we are calling those who share the same goals as the violent jihadists of ending our way of life "moderate", too, and simply for favoring a different approach to the goal.
    Well, I can't really disagree with you on that. We do label as "moderate" any Muslim who displays some Westernized way of thinking. Speaking of Tariq Ramadan he was considered a moderate too until he refused to condemn the stoning of women.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    If he is Moderate, am I like Ultra moderate Muslim?
    You're a very liberal Muslim. Much like the majority of European Muslims I know. The only time I've seen you dig your heels in and not budge an inch was in regards to the Mecca issue.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    They were killed by our wars, coups, and blockades.
    Which war?

    Which coup?

    And which blockade? The last blockade engaged in by the U.S. was the blockade of Cuba.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Ferris, I've cited references, but I can't make you understand or accept them. You're on your own with that.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Your silly claims, aside, please explain why you consider the people in the trade center as valid targets to be murdered.

    You justified the terrorism that killed them through this bizarre claim that they provoked such a response, so please establish the connection between these people and this supposed "hundreds of thousands" killed.
    No, I didn't. Provocation isn't the same as justification. The attacks weren't justified, but they were provoked by American aggression, for example the killing of over a million Iraqis with economic sanctions.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    No, I didn't. Provocation isn't the same as justification. The attacks weren't justified, but they were provoked by American aggression, for example the killing of over a million Iraqis with economic sanctions.
    The word "provocation" implies that the resultant act is a product of the first -- a direct justification.

    So when a group of saudis runs a couple of airplanes into the wtc, killing 3000 Americans, it just makes perfect sense because an economic policy shared by the United States and other western countries towards the leader of Iraq somehow forced that leader to gas Kurds, restrict important supplies to political cronies and run the country just like he always ran it.

    Got it.

    That's just as brilliant of an analysis as justifying my killing of your dog because a neighbor girl back in 1983 snipped a few of my flowers without asking.


    Yep -- It all makes such perfect sense.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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