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Thread: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

  1. #581
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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    I'm not a fan of anti-drug legislation but to try to compare trafficking in Schedule II and higher narcotics (which is the only conceivable way you could get a life sentence for it) to consensual sexual intercourse is laughable and just goes to show how desperate you are to defend a barbaric ideology.

    You're one of those people who doesn't see the difference between forcing women to wear the burka in public and forcing women to wear a top in public huh?
    I can understand why you'd think the comparison was a stretch, but it all has to do with what we're brought up to see as normal. I think you can make a reasonable argument that, if you're going to prohibit victimless crimes, it makes more sense to prohibit adultery. And who's really more fanatical about it? Do Muslim countries have multi-billion dollar bureaucracies dedicated to fighting a War on Sodomy? Do they have helicopters full of armored men with machine guns rapelling through people's skylights to catch them in flagrante delicto? If the police stop you in your car, do you have to submit to a team of dogs sniffing your fingers to make sure you haven't been up to anything naughty? We do all these things in the War on Drugs, and many more that are equally crazy. If you look at it objectively, our society is pathologically fixated on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris
    The last time I checked John Locke wasn't a puritan. Furthermore; laws that existed before the formation of the United States prove nothing about the United States.
    Sure they do. We're talking about the same states. They just didn't happen to be united yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris
    Quakers had more of an influence than the Puritans and Quakers were socially liberal.
    LOL.

  2. #582
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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    Absolutely and gladly. If you think this is the first time someone has pulled that old article on me, you're quite mistaken.

    The people referred to by the Swiss police in the article are not residents, nor citizens of this country. They are using our country as a platform for terrorism, like they use other European countries like the UK or Spain. Up until recently, given the peaceful nature and the ethnicity of our Muslim population, we thought we were immune to this sort of activity. It turns out that no country is immune to the presence of international terrorists on their soil. Not even our neutral little country.

    These people are ethnically and culturally different from the majority of actual Swiss Muslims. As I pointed out previously, our Muslim population is primarily comprised of people from the Balkans. They are well integrated, hard working people who have been making great efforts to become citizens of this country. Anyone who's tried to gain citizenship here knows what a long, expensive and demanding process it is. Is everything roses and fairy tales? Of course not! Like all immigrant populations, they bring with them their share of issues. The problems we have with this particular group of people have absolutely nothing to do with Islamic terrorism and everything to do with the deep psychological scars some of them still harbor because of what happened to them in Kosovo. Some turn to a life of petty crime. Nothing really major.

    Please, understand the difference between international terrorist groups and actual legal residents and citizens. The latter has next to nothing to do with the former.

    How can you be so sure?


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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    I'm saying that it hasn't changed yet and considering that not even one of the five schools has a moderate stance it is unlikely to change in the forseable future.



    Even if he argued for changing the punishments, there is no way he could change the fact that non-crimes are criminilzed under Sharia; such as, homosexuality and premarital sex since those things are explicitly outlawed by the Koran. The reason why Sharia is incompatible with a free society is because it is based on the assumption that it comes from the irrevocable and unchangeable word of god for all times and all places where as secular legislation can be repealed or amended because it is recognized that it comes not from god but by fallible men who could not possibly forsee the future.
    So how do you explain his willingness to actually modernize and adapt Sharia Law to the secular law of the land he lives in?
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    When he pulls a Tariq Ramadan and actually tries to justify the stoning of women and the cutting of hands, then I'll start worrying about this guy. He seems to be against all of that from what I can gather. He sounds quite moderate to me.
    Isn't Tariq Ramadan a Swiss citizen? One of those 'peaceful, hard working' Muslims you laud to me and others?


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    How can you be so sure?


    j-mac
    As sure as anyone can be of the goings on inside their own country. These are the results of a Swiss police investigation. I trust they're doing their job right. I'm not saying that we'll never have a homegrown terrorist in this country. That would be naive in the extreme. But so far, so good.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    Did he say that 9/11 was a good thing? Did he actually condone the attack? If he did, I want to see it. Thank you.
    No he didn't outright condone the attack, he did the next best thing and what Islamists always do, he blamed the victim.

    It's the stock "yes terrorism is really really bad but your treatment of Muslims is even worse," that we here from them every time an incident like this occurs.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    So how do you explain his willingness to actually modernize and adapt Sharia Law to the secular law of the land he lives in?
    Like I said all he suggested was changing the penal code, he never suggested changing the law itself only the punishements under the law.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    As sure as anyone can be of the goings on inside their own country. These are the results of a Swiss police investigation. I trust they're doing their job right. I'm not saying that we'll never have a homegrown terrorist in this country. That would be naive in the extreme. But so far, so good.

    Now wait a minute here....You specifically said:

    These people are ethnically and culturally different from the majority of actual Swiss Muslims. As I pointed out previously, our Muslim population is primarily comprised of people from the Balkans. They are well integrated, hard working people who have been making great efforts to become citizens of this country. Anyone who's tried to gain citizenship here knows what a long, expensive and demanding process it is. Is everything roses and fairy tales? Of course not! Like all immigrant populations, they bring with them their share of issues. The problems we have with this particular group of people have absolutely nothing to do with Islamic terrorism and everything to do with the deep psychological scars some of them still harbor because of what happened to them in Kosovo. Some turn to a life of petty crime. Nothing really major.
    Then you posted:

    When he pulls a Tariq Ramadan and actually tries to justify the stoning of women and the cutting of hands, then I'll start worrying about this guy.

    The two don't square Maam.


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    9-11 was a completely unprovoked attack.
    I suppose, if you don't consider killing hundreds of thousands of people a provocation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris
    Islam has been at war with us since nearly our founding. The Barbary pirates were attacking us and using Islam as their justification.
    Those are two very different assertions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris
    Ah the hero Mossadeq who overthrew the Iranian Constitutional Monarchy by dissolving parliament through a fraudulent referendum in which he garnered a 99.9% yay vote.
    The constitutional monarchy had evolved in a direction more monarchic than constitutional. Mossadegh dissolved the parliament not in order to rule by decree, but rather to establish a new parliament chosen through fair, open elections. It was a mistake, but arguably a legitimate move in a time of war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris
    As he aligned with the Soviets and the Soviet Tudeh party formed in Northern Iran during the Soviet occupation which was only brought to an end through U.S. intervention on Iran's behalf.
    This is what's sometimes referred to as a "badge of ignorance," a false claim so outdated and overused that there's no excuse for it any more. Mossadegh's crime wasn't alignment with Russia. It was his nationalist policy of non-alignment and his effort to free Iran of undue influence from both Russia and the West. The idea that he was a communist is a myth created by the CIA, which engaged in false flag violence as part of its black propaganda operation against him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris
    What Parliament? There was no Parliament to have consent, because Mossadeq unconstitutionally dissolved Parliament and granted himself the power to make law by decree through a fraudulent referendum in which he garnered a 99.9% yay vote. It was only after Mossadeq dissolved Parliament that the Shah ordered his dismissal.
    Wrong again. Mossadegh dissolved the Parliament after the first attempt to dismiss him had failed. True, he had already taken the referendum, but this was only because he'd learned of the plot against him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris
    Ya Mossadeq supported democracy by helping to destroy it.
    This attitude toward Mossadegh in general is a good example of how Americans react to Muslim democracy when they actually see it trying to get started. It's a nice word and a good pretext for intervention, but it goes right out the window as soon as it conflicts with oil interests.

    Iraq is another example. Their government was established under our watch and trumpeted by us as a legitimate democracy, yet we've constantly interfered with it and even attacked some parties when they opposed our ideas on oil rights. Most of the enemies we've fought in Iraq weren't terrorists but just people who wanted to govern themselves. It would be the same way if we went into Iran now. We claim to support the reformers (even though they don't want our help), but if it came to a choice between democracy and oil, we'd do our best to crush them as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris
    What communications? I see no communications listing in that link.
    Of particular interest is The CIA station chief's report that "our boys in Ankara did it." There's also the communication from the Turkish military to the US embassy informing them when the coup would take place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris
    So an alleged NATO war game that allegedly took place on Turkish soil with troops who took no part in the coup which the only citation for is a wiki article that cites back to a none reviewable journal published by a leftist Alternative Türkeihilfe somehow equates to evidence of U.S. complicity in the coup?
    It's a factor, along with the station chief's admission and the history of American intervention in Iran, Guatemala, the Congo, etc. It's very much part of a pattern.
    Last edited by Winston Smith; 07-28-10 at 11:58 AM.

  10. #590
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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    As sure as anyone can be of the goings on inside their own country. These are the results of a Swiss police investigation. I trust they're doing their job right. I'm not saying that we'll never have a homegrown terrorist in this country. That would be naive in the extreme. But so far, so good.
    It's only a matter of time, really.

    Sure, some of them may be stupid. And some of them may be inexperienced. But I believe that they'll keep trying - and eventually, some of them will succeed in doing something.

    Think about all the "tries" before 9/11. Mixed bag of success and failure. They are adapting and learning.

    No matter how vigilant, the Swiss police are, or how much surveillance, the Swiss conduct, sooner or later some of them will succeed.

    That is why they are a risk. If you truly believe your religion, then God comes before anything else. The problem is, Islam calls for the subjugation and conversion of the world, by all means, including lying, murder and terror.

    So as much as you may wish to be PC tolerant, every Muslim is a potential terrorist.

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