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Thread: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    Mind you, I'm perfectly able to radically change my mind on this if actual proof is presented on the nefarious intentions of the project leaders.
    The head of the project has stated that Bin Laden was made in the U.S.A., that the U.S. was partially responsible for 9-11, and he refused to denounce Hamas as a terrorist organization:

    Bradley: Are you in any way suggesting that we in the United States deserved what happened?

    Faisal: I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened, but united states policies were an accessory to the crime that happened.

    Bradley: You say that we're an accessory? How?

    Faisal: Because we have been accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world. In fact, in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA.

    Prominent American Muslims denounce terror committed in the name of Islam
    According to the State Department's assessment, "Hamas terrorists, especially those in the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, have conducted many attacks, including large-scale suicide bombings, against Israeli civilian and military targets."

    Asked if he agreed with the State Department's assessment, Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf told WABC radio, "Look, I'm not a politician.

    "The issue of terrorism is a very complex question," he told interviewer Aaron Klein.

    "There was an attempt in the '90s to have the UN define what terrorism is and say who was a terrorist. There was no ability to get agreement on that."

    Asked again for his opinion on Hamas, an exasperated Rauf wouldn't budge.

    "I am a peace builder. I will not allow anybody to put me in a position where I am seen by any party in the world as an adversary or as an enemy," Rauf said, insisting that he wants to see peace in Israel between Jews and Arabs.

    Rauf also would not answer a question about Egypt's outlawed Muslim Brotherhood.

    "I have nothing to do with the Muslim Brotherhood. My father was never a member of the Muslim Brotherhood," he said, disputing a rumor.

    Muslim Imam leading push to build a mosque near Ground Zero wavers on questions about Hamas as a terror group - NYPOST.com

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Well, here are some direct statements regarding Sharia right from the horses mouth.:

    Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf: What Shariah Law Is All About


    whereing he insists that Sharia is "God's Law", actually compares it to the Declaration of independence, and offers some b.s. as to its effect upon women.

    Since sharia is his goal, why should we believe him?
    His odd comparison to a secular document aside, I don't see anything particularly threatening in his statements. He's trying to do what the whole of Islam should be doing all over the world and that is to modernize and reinterpret the old laws. Isn't that what we all hope will happen soon on a global scale? Of course he thinks it's his god's law. He's a religious man, what else do you expect him to think? But you can't deny his effort to try and find ways to adapt this law to secular American law.

    When he pulls a Tariq Ramadan and actually tries to justify the stoning of women and the cutting of hands, then I'll start worrying about this guy. He seems to be against all of that from what I can gather. He sounds quite moderate to me.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    The head of the project has stated that Bin Laden was made in the U.S.A., that the U.S. was partially responsible for 9-11, and he refused to denounce Hamas as a terrorist organization:
    I don't fault him for his political opinions regarding the reasons for 9/11. Other prominent people who aren't Muslim, nor truthers have come to similar conclusions. That said I do find his reluctance to admit that Hamas engages in terrorist activities quite worrisome.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    His odd comparison to a secular document aside, I don't see anything particularly threatening in his statements. He's trying to do what the whole of Islam should be doing all over the world and that is to modernize and reinterpret the old laws. Isn't that what we all hope will happen soon on a global scale? Of course he thinks it's his god's law. He's a religious man, what else do you expect him to think? But you can't deny his effort to try and find ways to adapt this law to secular American law.

    When he pulls a Tariq Ramadan and actually tries to justify the stoning of women and the cutting of hands, then I'll start worrying about this guy. He seems to be against all of that from what I can gather. He sounds quite moderate to me.
    The Ijma of the Ulama in all five major schools of Islamic Fiqh is that apostasy, adultery, sodomy, and/or premarital sex are to punished with death and/or beatings. Those are the only accepted views in mainstream Islam.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    I don't fault him for his political opinions regarding the reasons for 9/11. Other prominent people who aren't Muslim, nor truthers have come to similar conclusions.
    Yes radicals have come to similar conclusions, moderates see the 9-11 attacks as exactly what they were, 3,000 cold blooded unprovoked acts of murder.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    The Ijma of the Ulama in all five major schools of Islamic Fiqh is that apostasy, adultery, sodomy, and/or premarital sex are to punished with death and/or beatings. Those are the only accepted views in mainstream Islam.
    Are you saying that is never going to change? Other religions have evolved and reformed. Islam will too. And even if the core doctrine never changes, average people will eventually reject it. It happens to every religion eventually. It's already starting to happen to Islam. Especially in the West. You'd have to be quite obtuse not to see the trend already happening.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    I don't fault him for his political opinions regarding the reasons for 9/11.
    You mean his justification. No shock you don't condemn him for it.

    Other prominent people who aren't Muslim, nor truthers have come to similar conclusions.
    Terrorist supporters? yes.

    That said I do find his reluctance to admit that Hamas engages in terrorist activities quite worrisome.
    Worrisome? He's an Islamic terrorist supporter. Jesus dude call it for what it is.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    Please, understand the difference between international terrorist groups and actual legal residents and citizens. The latter has next to nothing to do with the former.
    Yes, in some cases it does. Here's an update

    Alaska terrorism: Terrorism case shocks remote Alaska town - latimes.com

    "Obviously we take it very seriously when somebody starts talking about building bombs and component parts and killing citizens because of a hatred that is fueled by violent Internet sites," said Karen L. Loeffler, U.S. attorney for Alaska.

    Loeffler, who would not elaborate on how the FBI became aware of the Rockwoods, said the investigation does not involve any other terrorism suspects, and no additional charges are expected.

    The plea agreements the couple signed said Paul Rockwood converted to Islam in late 2001 or early 2002 while living in Virginia and became a follower of radical U.S.-born Muslim cleric Anwar Awlaki, now believed to be living in Yemen.
    You also have to remember that for every person willing to actually kill for a cause, there are 10 who are willing to do something slightly less, such as hire a car or rent an apartment or buy a plane ticket.

    Then there are 100 who would gladly donate money to something they honestly believed was a "charity", and would be more than willing to look the other way if assertions were made that the "charity" was actually a front for raising money for terrorists.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    Are you saying that is never going to change?
    I'm saying that it hasn't changed yet and considering that not even one of the five schools has a moderate stance it is unlikely to change in the forseable future.

    Other religions have evolved and reformed. Islam will too. And even if the core doctrine never changes, average people will eventually reject it. It happens to every religion eventually. It's already starting to happen to Islam. Especially in the West. You'd have to be quite obtuse not to see the trend already happening.
    Even if he argued for changing the punishments, there is no way he could change the fact that non-crimes are criminilzed under Sharia; such as, homosexuality and premarital sex since those things are explicitly outlawed by the Koran. The reason why Sharia is incompatible with a free society is because it is based on the assumption that it comes from the irrevocable and unchangeable word of god for all times and all places where as secular legislation can be repealed or amended because it is recognized that it comes not from god but by fallible men who could not possibly forsee the future.
    Last edited by Agent Ferris; 07-28-10 at 11:41 AM.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    You mean his justification. No shock you don't condemn him for it.
    Did he say that 9/11 was a good thing? Did he actually condone the attack? If he did, I want to see it. Thank you.

    As for my not condemning someone else's political opinions, it's just how I am. You of all people should be glad for that.



    Terrorist supporters? yes.
    I don't know, I don't really interact with their lot. I was talking about international political analysts.




    Worrisome? He's an Islamic terrorist supporter. Jesus dude call it for what it is.
    I'll call him that when I'm actually convinced that he is one. You're perfectly welcome to jump to conclusions. It's not my style, however.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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