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Thread: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

  1. #451
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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by BCR View Post
    The massive majority of them are not a threat. Just like the massive majority of Fundamentalist Christians are not a threat but still a select few will shoot up abortion clinics. We don't lump all Christians in with those nuts so why do it with Muslims?
    Do you or do you not consider the fact that the majority of terrorist acts that have occurred in the last two decades have been perpetrated by Muslims? Do you or do you not consider the fact that Muslims, not necessarily Muslim nations have not only perpetrated those terrorist acts, but have stated on multiple occasions that they will do more to be a significant red flag? Is the fact that Muslim terrorists have attempted or successfully completed terrorist acts by setting off truck bombs in basements, hijacked aircraft with box cutters, hidden bombs in shoes, attempted to board aircraft with bomb making materials consisting of binary explosives, rammed ships with explosive laden boats, etc. at all meaningful to you? In other words, give them credit for innovation.

    No one is saying that being Muslim is a terrorist act, but the simple fact is, being Muslim is a red flag when it is coupled with unusual acts that have terrorist potential.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Hmmm....if you go back a couple of pages (if not this thread) you'll know, I am against a theocratic government, whatever the religion. Including Christianity.
    Never said you weren't -- you asked a question, I answered it.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    I'm not advocating a war of extermination in any way. What I am advocating is defense of our interests. If we fail to defend our culture, beliefs, and society aginst this predatory and aggressive medieval cult, then we don't deserve to exist as free men. Anything that you cannot (or will not) protect, isn't going to remain yours for long.
    The only thing you can do to defend such amorphic things like cultures and belief systems is to share them -- with your kids, their kids, your siblings' kids, and anybody else who will listen.

    Other than that, you have your basic duty as a citizen a la Civics 101.

    Beyond that, there's nothing you can do unless you're willing to become a vigilante.


    TED,
    Not interested in the vigilante route.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    For the same reason, I believe there can be a reasonable restriction on freedom of religion. If you worship Quetzelcoatl, you aren't going to be allowed to cut out someone's heart for a sacrifice. A Kali worshipper can't strangle a sacrifical victim and the druids can't burn a man in a basket at Samhain.
    You cannot, under any circumstances, simply ban a religion.

    All you can do is ban whatever religious practices violate the rights of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Whether their beliefs are true and Allah is the one and only God or not is irrelevant. The issue is whether they are a threat or not.
    Joe McCarthy, is that YUO?!
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Opteron View Post
    One thing we don't see much, at least I don't see it, is the speaking out against terrorism by other Muslims. If you don't believe in terrorism, you should condemn it, especially if the people are using the same religion in your name to conduct terrorism.
    Most of us don't make it a point to condemn terrorism. If it comes up in conversation then we vent about how bad it is and whatnot, but we don't walk around thinking to ourselves, "Have I condemned terrorists enough to edify my countrymen today?"

    Muslims shouldn't have to do that, either. If they don't expend any especial effort to seperate themselves from the terrorists, it's likely because they figure that (as peaceful law-abiding citizens) it should be so painfully obvious that they don't support terrorism that nobody would require a statement to that effect.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    I realize over in Iran they are still stoning people to death but we are not in Iran so why on Earth should we put the label of a 3rd world country on the shoulders of the large and peaceful group of American Muslims. I am absolutley sick of hearing "They still stone people to death". Yeah they do, in Iran not the U.S.A. I personally do not support religion one bit but it's here to stay during my lifetime and I live in a Country that has religious freedom woven into it's fabric. I sure as hell will see to it that every religion is treated fairly. What many of you doing by painting all of Islam as the guilty of 9/11 is wrong.

    If a pack of radical Christians were to have rammed Jets into the twin towers we would not see such an objection if a YMCA with a chapel inside it being built within two blocks of the site, You all know you wouldn't appose that. It comes down to the core of religion. You all think that Muslims are misguided and on the wrong path, how would they find popularity in an overwhelmingly Christian country? You see, Islam has just as much of a chance being true as Christianity. Which is why I think it's laughable about how some of you argue about which religion is better, American Muslims are good people they are not like there counterparts in the middle east so quit putting that label on them.
    I use a lot of satire and sarcasm so keep that in mind when reading my posts.

  7. #457
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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    What I find extremely interesting in this new hatred/fear/distrust/revulsion [I don't even know what term to use anymore, as the level of rejection seems to vary greatly by individual anti-Muslim person] that seems to have gripped some people beyond all rationality and logic, is the complete lack of perspective that goes hand in hand with it. Their legitimate arguments and complaints about the Muslim religion are so intertwined with the paranoid, incoherent and very ignorant rhetoric that they become utterly invisible and meaningless. Do they even realize that, I wonder? Do they not see how their point gets lost in the avalanche of hateful words they spew?

    There is a very good case to be made about the darker, more ultra-conservative side of Islam. Unfortunately, these guys are going about it all wrong. There is an undeniable sense of duty and responsibility in all of us to protect and preserve our own Western culture. We've come a long way since the Dark Ages and we are most certainly never going back. I have absolutely no issue with laws that severely limit or outright ban harmful religious practices. Fundamentalism in all its religious forms must be closely monitored and prevented from causing harm to others. Whether it's the Muslim father killing his daughter to protect his family's honor, or the Jehova's Witness mother who would rather let her son die than let him have a blood transfusion, or even the ultra-evangelical Christians who would rather pray than seek medical treatment for their children. Then we have the more violent ones who take it outside their immediate circle and blow themselves up in crowds or bomb abortion clinics. ALL these practices are wrong and must be prosecuted through our courts. We already have laws that deal with all of this. There is absolutely no need to ban any of these religions.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that I understand the underlying point the anti-Islam people in this thread are trying to make, I just absolutely refuse to punish the innocent for the actions of the guilty. And I absolutely reject the notion that Islam is a threat to me here in the West. Radical, violent Muslims are a threat and must be dealt with accordingly. Average, peaceful Muslims are not a threat and must be left alone to live their lives like the rest of us.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

  8. #458
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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    What I find extremely interesting in this new hatred/fear/distrust/revulsion [I don't even know what term to use anymore, as the level of rejection seems to vary greatly by individual anti-Muslim person] that seems to have gripped some people beyond all rationality and logic, is the complete lack of perspective that goes hand in hand with it. Their legitimate arguments and complaints about the Muslim religion are so intertwined with the paranoid, incoherent and very ignorant rhetoric that they become utterly invisible and meaningless. Do they even realize that, I wonder? Do they not see how their point gets lost in the avalanche of hateful words they spew?

    There is a very good case to be made about the darker, more ultra-conservative side of Islam. Unfortunately, these guys are going about it all wrong. There is an undeniable sense of duty and responsibility in all of us to protect and preserve our own Western culture. We've come a long way since the Dark Ages and we are most certainly never going back. I have absolutely no issue with laws that severely limit or outright ban harmful religious practices. Fundamentalism in all its religious forms must be closely monitored and prevented from causing harm to others. Whether it's the Muslim father killing his daughter to protect his family's honor, or the Jehova's Witness mother who would rather let her son die than let him have a blood transfusion, or even the ultra-evangelical Christians who would rather pray than seek medical treatment for their children. Then we have the more violent ones who take it outside their immediate circle and blow themselves up in crowds or bomb abortion clinics. ALL these practices are wrong and must be prosecuted through our courts. We already have laws that deal with all of this. There is absolutely no need to ban any of these religions.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that I understand the underlying point the anti-Islam people in this thread are trying to make, I just absolutely refuse to punish the innocent for the actions of the guilty. And I absolutely reject the notion that Islam is a threat to me here in the West. Radical, violent Muslims are a threat and must be dealt with accordingly. Average, peaceful Muslims are not a threat and must be left alone to live their lives like the rest of us.
    I largely agree with your take on it.

    My feelings are, we shouldn't be dumping on Muslims in mass.
    That's dumb, the majority haven't done anything wrong to anyone.

    On the other hand, I don't think it's a wise choice to build a mosque so close to the former trade towers.
    A bit insensitive, in my opinion.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I largely agree with your take on it.

    My feelings are, we shouldn't be dumping on Muslims in mass.
    That's dumb, the majority haven't done anything wrong to anyone.

    On the other hand, I don't think it's a wise choice to build a mosque so close to the former trade towers.
    A bit insensitive, in my opinion.
    It's only insensitive because we still largely associate Islam with violence. I have to confess that even I did initially cringe at the idea. I thought "Oh, this is not good. A Mosque that close to Ground Zero, do they not see how inappropriate that is?". It was honestly my first gut reaction. But then I of course felt guilty for thinking this way. My mind was going to a place I did not like at all. Yeah, I guess it's insensitive in a way, but must all Muslims carry the shame of 9/11 with them? I'm not even all that convinced that Islam is the underlying cause for 9/11. I don't think the religion should be blamed for what I still see as a political attack.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    It's only insensitive because we still largely associate Islam with violence. I have to confess that even I did initially cringe at the idea. I thought "Oh, this is not good. A Mosque that close to Ground Zero, do they not see how inappropriate that is?". It was honestly my first gut reaction. But then I of course felt guilty for thinking this way. My mind was going to a place I did not like at all. Yeah, I guess it's insensitive in a way, but must all Muslims carry the shame of 9/11 with them? I'm not even all that convinced that Islam is the underlying cause for 9/11. I don't think the religion should be blamed for what I still see as a political attack.
    No they shouldn't but the public, whether we like or not, does associate the two together.
    Even religions have to play the public relations game.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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