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Thread: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

  1. #401
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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Since Jet refuses to answer, I'll let others take a shot at my previous question (if they can)

    Wtf constitutes "radical" Islam? Is it the desire to declare jihad on unbelievers? To eliminate Israel? To destroy the US? To spread Islam around the world?

    Wtf is it?
    Jihad isn't purely a 'radical' belief or focus. . . Jihad, in essence, is actually spreading the word (just like Jehova's witnesses coming to your door or missionaries going to other countries to build churches in exchange for medical care)

    But Jihad is in several parts - one is to better yourself as a Muslim, another part is to witness to others and try to get them to convert (tehse first two parts is something that all religions have in common) and another part is to wage a physical war on your adversaries after you've tried to convert as many as possible to the faith.

    However- 'racial' islam in our modern view is anyone who is willing to commit an act of violence/terrorism in the name of their religion - mainly so without the support of their head-leaders.
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 07-26-10 at 01:25 PM.
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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Jihad isn't purely a 'radical' belief or focus. . . Jihad, in essence, is actually spreading the word (just like Jehova's witnesses coming to your door or missionaries going to other countries to build churches in exchange for medical care)
    No in Islam that's actually called Dawah.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    I didn't say they weren't Muslims or that they didn't use religion to justify their crimes.
    You said and I quote:

    "We haven't always been at war with Islam. It's only since we've interfered in their business that it's become such a big issue."

    That is false, we have been attacked by Muslims since nearly the founding of this country.

    But Muslims haven't been the only ones to do that. Christians thoroughly plundered the New World and exterminated the natives in the name of Christ, sad to say.
    WTF do the conquistadores have to do with the current conversation?

    To a great extent, Islamic radicalism is the creation of Western colonial/imperialist powers who were seeking to counteract democratic forces.
    Bull****, Islam has been expanding by the sword since its very inception. The Islamic powers were just as imperialistic as the European powers.

    Democracy has failed to thrive in the Muslim world because we've actively opposed it at almost every turn.
    Bull****. There have been no great democratic movements in the Muslims world. There have been Arab nationalist movements and Islamist movements along with some Communist movements, name the Liberal Democratic movement that the U.S. has opposed in the Muslim world.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    I wouldn't defend genocide by any regime. Not even a pro-American one.
    No you would just draw some sort of moral equivalency.

    See the linked material on "The Bloody Code."
    This is a link to an article about the North America before the formation of the United States.

    Also of interest are the race-specific laws applicable only to blacks.

    Now we're on to Jim Crow laws in an attempt to justify the death penalty for apostasy, sodomy, and adultery.

    I don't know the last time, but it does happen:
    What's the name of the case? FYI Lawrence V. Texas found the right to privacy in consensual sexual relations, try again.



    So they responded to pressure. Good for them.
    Yay now she'll just get a life sentence.

    The 15th century was closer to it than you might think. It was just before the Reformation, which marked a period of transition from Medieval times to modernity. Islam's current condition is arguably similar.
    As of now mainstream Islam is stuck in the 15th century and is incompatible with a free liberal society.

  5. #405
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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    I think it's fair to say that radical Islam is what you get when the religion is twisted to justify the use of violence against civilians in the interest of disrupting the established order.
    You...like many on these forums are just looking at a symptom, not the cause. The root cause

    Radical Islam is merely a symptom and is ultimately, not the problem. The PROBLEM is that "radical" Islam is not "radical". The trouble is many (like yourself) want to call it that to disenfranchise it and separate it from the politically correct "moderate" Islam.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    You...like many on these forums are just looking at a symptom, not the cause. The root cause

    Radical Islam is merely a symptom and is ultimately, not the problem. The PROBLEM is that "radical" Islam is not "radical". The trouble is many (like yourself) want to call it that to disenfranchise it and separate it from the politically correct "moderate" Islam.
    Quote Originally Posted by Princeton's WordNet
    Radical: extremist: (used of opinions and actions) far beyond the norm; "extremist political views"; "radical opinions on education"; "an ultra conservative"
    If you cannot demonstrate that violent Muslims are not, in fact, far beyond the norm (in fact, I don't think I've seen anybody successfully demonstrate that Muslims are violent in the main), then those violent Muslims are, by definition, radical.

    You may not return to your regularly scheduled ignorance.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Winston - The huge difference is, Islam won't collapse under economic pressure. Religions collapse or go by the wayside either through conquest and eradication, or by conversion to a perceived superior religion. Islam protects itself by not allowing the open practice of another religion in their territory and killing anyone who converts to another religion from Islam.

    This makes it practically impossible for Islam to ever collapse the way communism did in the USSR.

    Islam is even more insidious than communism.
    At different times Muslim societies have been prosperous and poor, tolerant and oppressive, influential and backward. And of course Muslims can have any kind of political beliefs, from libertarian to Marxist. Islam isn't a monolithic ideology.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    If you cannot demonstrate that violent Muslims are not, in fact, far beyond the norm (in fact, I don't think I've seen anybody successfully demonstrate that Muslims are violent in the main), then those violent Muslims are, by definition, radical.

    You may not return to your regularly scheduled ignorance.
    That's wrong, you have to include everybody in the definition of Muslims including the radicals and then take the average of that. That will be your definition of how violent is the average Muslim. You cannot just say anybody who is peaceful counts and anybody who is violent doesn't count, that's picking and choosing. You have to look at the per capita violence of Islam.

    Also, look at the response to the printing of the Danish cartoons. There were massive protests around the Muslim world, many of them burning effigies of the writer. These people seemed to be mainstream Muslim, and look at their intolerance.
    Last edited by Opteron; 07-26-10 at 03:46 PM.

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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    No you would just draw some sort of moral equivalency.
    Between what? Pro-American and anti-American genocide?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris
    This is a link to an article about the North America before the formation of the United States.
    Yes, it is. If you're pointing out that America changed over time and that the democratic United States were different from the theocratic colonies that existed a few generations before, congratulations. You're starting to get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris
    Now we're on to Jim Crow laws in an attempt to justify the death penalty for apostasy, sodomy, and adultery.
    No, if you read the link you'll see that it has nothing to do with that. It's about death penalty laws in the early 1700s that applied only to blacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris
    What's the name of the case? FYI Lawrence V. Texas found the right to privacy in consensual sexual relations, try again.
    The name of the case isn't given. What difference does it make?

    Lawrence v. Texas doesn't necessarily apply to adultery, and even if it does, it's only seven years old.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris
    Yay now she'll just get a life sentence.
    Maybe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris
    As of now mainstream Islam is stuck in the 15th century and is incompatible with a free liberal society.
    That's your opinion. But many Muslims choose to work and struggle for free societies despite our efforts to deny them.

  10. #410
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    Re: Landmark commission hearing may determine future of ground zero mosque

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    At different times Muslim societies have been prosperous and poor, tolerant and oppressive, influential and backward. And of course Muslims can have any kind of political beliefs, from libertarian to Marxist. Islam isn't a monolithic ideology.

    It is not the entire Muslim population that want's to build this mosque. It is one group, fronted by a man that advocates Shria compliance in American law. Why aren't we allowed to see whom is funding this?


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