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Thread: Obama at odds with Petraeus doctrine on 'Islam'

  1. #51
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    Re: Obama at odds with Petraeus doctrine on 'Islam'

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Under Prophet Mohammed's teaching, Muslim women were granted the right to own, inherit and dispose of their own property, obtain an education women were amongst the first followers and teachers of Islam.
    "Treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers."

    But if you want to believe all Muslim women are somehow beaten daily and are an oppressed, weak demographic your problem

    Oh and on topic, I see no problem with what Obama is trying to do.
    US is not at war with Islam no matter how much people wish it was.
    Ah another uninformed soul.

    Try these quotes from the Qur'an

    "Men have authpority over women because God has made the one superior to the other: Qur'an 4:34

    Your women are a tilth (that means to use as the man wants) for you to cultivate so go to your tilth as ye will 2:223

    Get two witnesses out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose for witnesses so that if one of the errs, the other can remind her 2:282

    If he fear that ye shall not be able to deal justily with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two or three or fourl but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with them, then only one, or a captive that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable to prevent you from doing injustice 4:3

    Ahhah thus directs you as regards your children's inheritance: to the male, a portion equal to that of two females 4:11



    And how does that translate into today? Why don't we ask some Islamic Clerics?

    YouTube - The man must hit his wife because women are stupid beings

    YouTube - The man is allowed to hit his wife in Islam


    Seriously, if you want to put forth this fantasy that women are treated as equals start counting the Muslim dominated countries with equal rights for woman and get back to us.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

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  2. #52
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    Re: Obama at odds with Petraeus doctrine on 'Islam'

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    Doesn't matter what the message is suppose to be about.

    See Spanish Inquisition.
    Neeeh - with his point the Spanish Inquisition doesn't really work. That was waged by people on people - using the Bible as a crutch for violence and wrath. God didn't ordain anything.

    You have to look to the Bible for a good come back example.

    The Battle of Jericho is one.
    Sodom and Gomorrah is another.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
    Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow

  3. #53
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    Re: Obama at odds with Petraeus doctrine on 'Islam'

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    An evil college class on the history of islam.



    Sizing up my opponent I can tell he doesn't know what he's talking about. I may decide to engage you later when we've studied some quranic verse in class, weve been through a couple.
    Read up on Amazon.com: Infidel (9780743289689): Ayaan Hirsi Ali: Books

    It will embarrassed you about all the Islam related issues going on outside the US that, you never heard about

  4. #54
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    Re: Obama at odds with Petraeus doctrine on 'Islam'

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    That's interesting considering I know many Muslims and their leaders at their Mosque that have no problem with critical examinations of their religion and they haven't threatened to kill me for it.

    I think your hatred for Muslims is quite clear
    Make no mistake however, Islam is a faith of the sword. There is no place for dissent in their camp. As much as it might piss off Christians to see a mocking picture of Christ, nobody gets their head cut off over it.

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    Re: Obama at odds with Petraeus doctrine on 'Islam'

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Ah another uninformed soul.

    Try these quotes from the Qur'an

    "Men have authpority over women because God has made the one superior to the other: Qur'an 4:34

    Your women are a tilth (that means to use as the man wants) for you to cultivate so go to your tilth as ye will 2:223

    Get two witnesses out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose for witnesses so that if one of the errs, the other can remind her 2:282

    If he fear that ye shall not be able to deal justily with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two or three or fourl but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with them, then only one, or a captive that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable to prevent you from doing injustice 4:3

    Ahhah thus directs you as regards your children's inheritance: to the male, a portion equal to that of two females 4:11



    And how does that translate into today? Why don't we ask some Islamic Clerics?

    YouTube - The man must hit his wife because women are stupid beings

    YouTube - The man is allowed to hit his wife in Islam


    Seriously, if you want to put forth this fantasy that women are treated as equals start counting the Muslim dominated countries with equal rights for woman and get back to us.
    Leviticus 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

  6. #56
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    Re: Obama at odds with Petraeus doctrine on 'Islam'

    Oh jeez, this is going to be a long night .... or morning considering it is 6am here now

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Ah another uninformed soul.
    Indeed, don't you just hate the ignorant

    Try this quotes from the Qur'an
    "Men have authpority over women because God has made the one superior to the other: Qur'an 4:34
    Whoever does righteous acts, whether male or female, while he is a believer, verily, to him We will give a good life, and We shall pay them certainly a reward in proportion to the best of what they used to do.

    O you who believe! There is no permission for you to inherit women by force. Nor may you treat them harshly, so that you can make off with part of what you have given them, unless they commit an act of flagrant indecency. Live together with them correctly and courteously.

    We can play this game all morning

    "Anyone, male or female, who does right actions and believes, will enter the Garden. They will not be wronged by so much as the tiniest speck" (Surat an-Nisa: 124
    Get two witnesses out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose for witnesses so that if one of the errs, the other can remind her 2:282
    The woman's testimony is equal to the man's testimony except in one case only, the financial transactions.

    There is only one verse in the Qur’ân, that says two female witnesses are equal to one male witness. This verse is Surah Baqarah.

    The full and not cut and paste version of 2:282:

    [ 2:282] O you who believe, when you transact a loan for any period, you shall write it down. An impartial scribe shall do the writing. Two men shall serve as witnesses; if not two men, then a man and two women whose testimony is acceptable to all. Thus, if one woman becomes biased, the other will remind her. It is the obligation of the witnesses to testify when called upon to do so.

    It doesn’t say women are stupid or can’t be trusted, but instead states that if two men are not present to witness a transaction then have two women as well.
    To understand the verse, which I doubt many Non Muslims attempt to learn one must understand the context it was written in. In Islam especially in the period of Prophet Mohammed's men were expected to be the breadwinners, financial responsibility was and to a great extent is STILL shouldered by the men.

    This does not mean Muslim men see women as lesser, but is a reflection of the different roles of men and women in a society envisaged by Islam.

    If he fear that ye shall not be able to deal justily with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two or three or fourl but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with them, then only one, or a captive that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable to prevent you from doing injustice 4:3
    That is not the full translation. Good god.
    And what is the problem with polygamy? This is a non issue. I could care less if a Muslim man has 10 wives. Inside Islam, all wives must be treated fairly and the permission must be sought before he marries another not to mention the poor bugger has the problem of looking after all of them and providing for all of his children. Sounds more like punishment than reward to me but I digress.

    Islam allows polygamy in circumstances, once again people must look at the historical context. This was at a period of alot of wars for Muslims where women were often left to raise a child. Muslim men were encouraged to marry and hence protect said females and children even if they were not his own children.

    This stems from the battle of Uhud where Muslims lost badly against the Pagans and unfortunately suffered a dramatic decrease in the number of Muslim men, this left many widows. See point above. Not to mention the decrease of Muslim men was renforced when Muslims faced battle of the Trench against the Pagans in Mecca and along with the Jews and Christians who wanted to finish Islam off.

    My point is there was a shortage of men and too many women, the holy Quran had a solution for the problem and I see no problem with the logic of Prophet Mohammed (MPBUH)

    But going off topic again, the bottom line is polygamy was not encouraged but rather a solution to a problem facing Muslims who were a minority at the time of the Qu’rans introduction. The Qu’ran states be fair to your wives or do not get married.

    Oh and other exceptions to allow polygamy is if a woman is barren and husband wants a child but does not wish to divorce her or if the wife is ill and can not look after children and fulfil any of her duties etc.

    Ahhah thus directs you as regards your children's inheritance: to the male, a portion equal to that of two females 4:11[/i]
    Not the full verse AGAIN.

    "Allah enjoins you about [the share of inheritance of] your children: A male's share shall equal that of two females -- in case there are only daughters, more than two shall have two-thirds of what has been left behind. And if there be only one daughter, her share shall be half -- and if the deceased has children, the parents shall inherit a sixth each, and if he has no children and the parents are his heirs then his mother shall receive a third, and if he has brothers and sisters then the mother's share is the same one-sixth. [These shares shall be distributed] after carrying out any will made by the deceased or payment of any debt owed by him (the deceased). You know not who among your children and your parents are nearest to you in benefit. This is the law of Allah. Indeed Allah is wise, all knowing."

    Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more than the other and because men support them from their means." [Quran 4:34]

    In Islam it is a man's duty to support his wife, and not the reverse. Islam acknowledges Men and Women are different both physically and emotionally. This does not mean that women are inferior. I’ll get onto why this matters in terms of inheritance later on.

    The Qu’rans view on men being “protectors” of Women means that it influences inheritance laws as they are proportional to the duties of the individuals. A Muslim man in Islam has to take charge of supporting his family, his brother's children if his brother dies, his parents when they of course retire and no longer have an income of their own and any children he may have from a previous marriage and his household which would include his wife (or wives)

    A Muslim women however has none of these responsibilities so it makes sense the Man inherits more money if he is the one who gets the burden of responsibility that comes with it.

    What is the issue here?


    And how does that translate into day? Why don't we ask some Islamic Clerics?
    Because they speak for all 1.2billion of us. Amirite?

    Seriously, if you want to put forth this fantasy that women are treated as equals start counting the Muslim dominated countries and get back to us.
    I lived in a Muslim dominated society where the population of Muslims were 99%

    Next.
    Last edited by Laila; 07-13-10 at 02:34 AM.


  7. #57
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    Re: Obama at odds with Petraeus doctrine on 'Islam'

    I think this thread has degenerated into to much of painting with one brush or another. There are many of the Muslim faith that are considerate of others, kind to women, and wish to live in a world of tolerance. However there are also many who wish to see you die because you are an infidel and deserve death. Someone already made a post about the four different types of Sharia law and how it is practiced in different ways, some being more tolerant then others. To label an entire religious group as our enemy is extreme and accomplishes nothing. However refusing to recognize that our enemy are hidden within the ranks of a religion is also stupid and will get us into a huge heap of trouble.

  8. #58
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    Re: Obama at odds with Petraeus doctrine on 'Islam'

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozengale View Post
    I think this thread has degenerated into to much of painting with one brush or another. There are many of the Muslim faith that are considerate of others, kind to women, and wish to live in a world of tolerance. However there are also many who wish to see you die because you are an infidel and deserve death. Someone already made a post about the four different types of Sharia law and how it is practiced in different ways, some being more tolerant then others. To label an entire religious group as our enemy is extreme and accomplishes nothing. However refusing to recognize that our enemy are hidden within the ranks of a religion is also stupid and will get us into a huge heap of trouble.
    We have gone complete off topic which generally happens with threads like these.

    I agree with your assessment, very well put


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    Re: Obama at odds with Petraeus doctrine on 'Islam'

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Read up on Amazon.com: Infidel (9780743289689): Ayaan Hirsi Ali: Books

    It will embarrassed you about all the Islam related issues going on outside the US that, you never heard about
    So I can take small instances of ugliness and attribute them to the entire religion of 1.3 billion. SURE COUNT ME IN!

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    Re: Obama at odds with Petraeus doctrine on 'Islam'

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Make no mistake however, Islam is a faith of the sword. There is no place for dissent in their camp. As much as it might piss off Christians to see a mocking picture of Christ, nobody gets their head cut off over it.
    UH............. what................

    Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

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