Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.
Alexis de Tocqueville
How does that excuse the passage I quoted? And where is your chapter and verse? What you just quoted is about accepting faith not equality.Whoever does righteous acts, whether male or female, while he is a believer, verily, to him We will give a good life, and We shall pay them certainly a reward in proportion to the best of what they used to do.
O you who believe! There is no permission for you to inherit women by force. Nor may you treat them harshly, so that you can make off with part of what you have given them, unless they commit an act of flagrant indecency. Live together with them correctly and courteously.
LOL You're off to a rough start.We can play this game all morning
Such fantasy. How do you keep them straight? How many witnesses must a woman have against man who raped her? Please, enlighten usThe woman's testimony is equal to the man's testimony except in one case only, the financial transactions.
Again, that changes nothing about what the quote actually says. You only made it longer, you never changed the meaning behind it.There is only one verse in the Qur’ân, that says two female witnesses are equal to one male witness. This verse is Surah Baqarah.
The full and not cut and paste version of 2:282:
[ 2:282] O you who believe, when you transact a loan for any period, you shall write it down. An impartial scribe shall do the writing. Two men shall serve as witnesses; if not two men, then a man and two women whose testimony is acceptable to all. Thus, if one woman becomes biased, the other will remind her. It is the obligation of the witnesses to testify when called upon to do so.
I am enjoying the fact you are trying to separate the attacks against women's equality by catagorizing the different levels of keeping women inferior.
Yes yes its all the misunderstandings of Non Muslims. We certainly don't see the subjugation of women in muslim dominated countries do we? lolIt doesn’t say women are stupid or can’t be trusted, but instead states that if two men are not present to witness a transaction then have two women as well.
To understand the verse, which I doubt many Non Muslims attempt to learn one must understand the context it was written in. In Islam especially in the period of Prophet Mohammed's men were expected to be the breadwinners, financial responsibility was and to a great extent is STILL shouldered by the men.
Funny how you forgot about this little gem when it comes to witnesses against a rape.
Why don't you explain how women need 4 male witnesses or she will be punished for charging rape against a man. Go ahead, this should be entertaining.
Of course it does. If you see women as needing to double their numbers just for bearing witness or needing 4 men to bare witness to a rape before it can be called such you are absolutley looking down at women.This does not mean Muslim men see women as lesser, but is a reflection of the different roles of men and women in a society envisaged by Islam.
But there are plenty other examples.
"Prophet! Tell your wives and daughters and all Muslim women to draw cloaks and veils all over their bodies (screening themselves completely except for one or two eyes to see the way). That will be better." 33:59
"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them." 4:15
And this doesn't even approach why in Islam only men can marry multiple women. Women cannot do the same.
You want to keep this up go right ahead. I've got plenty more
Thank for you being so transparent.That is not the full translation. Good god.
And what is the problem with polygamy? This is a non issue. I could care less if a Muslim man has 10 wives.
But women can't have multiple husbands can they? Your own inability to see the sexism in that practce speaks volumes.Inside Islam, all wives must be treated fairly and the permission must be sought before he marries another not to mention the poor bugger has the problem of looking after all of them and providing for all of his children. Sounds more like punishment than reward to me but I digress.
Islam allows polygamy in circumstances, once again people must look at the historical context. This was at a period of alot of wars for Muslims where women were often left to raise a child. Muslim men were encouraged to marry and hence protect said females and children even if they were not his own children.
And how many hundreds of years ago was that if it is an excuse? Are you saying Islam is incapable of evolving because I'm right with you there.This stems from the battle of Uhud where Muslims lost badly against the Pagans and unfortunately suffered a dramatic decrease in the number of Muslim men, this left many widows. See point above. Not to mention the decrease of Muslim men was renforced when Muslims faced battle of the Trench against the Pagans in Mecca and along with the Jews and Christians who wanted to finish Islam off.
No of course you wouldn't because you never considered the women's point of view.My point is there was a shortage of men and too many women, the holy Quran had a solution for the problem and I see no problem with the logic of Prophet Mohammed (MPBUH)
Again even if we were to believe that fantasy it was over 1000 years ago and the practice to devalue women is still strong today.But going off topic again, the bottom line is polygamy was not encouraged but rather a solution to a problem facing Muslims who were a minority at the time of the Qu’rans introduction. The Qu’ran states be fair to your wives or do not get married.
Oh and other exceptions to allow polygamy is if a woman is barren and husband wants a child but does not wish to divorce her or if the wife is ill and can not look after children and fulfil any of her duties etc.[/quote]
LOL So a woman isn't useful in Islam if she can't bare children so the husband should be free to marry others. Thanks again for showing your true colors.
And AGAIN the longer quote doesn't negate the point the passage is waiting.Not the full verse AGAIN.
"Allah enjoins you about [the share of inheritance of] your children: A male's share shall equal that of two females -- in case there are only daughters, more than two shall have two-thirds of what has been left behind. And if there be only one daughter, her share shall be half -- and if the deceased has children, the parents shall inherit a sixth each, and if he has no children and the parents are his heirs then his mother shall receive a third, and if he has brothers and sisters then the mother's share is the same one-sixth. [These shares shall be distributed] after carrying out any will made by the deceased or payment of any debt owed by him (the deceased). You know not who among your children and your parents are nearest to you in benefit. This is the law of Allah. Indeed Allah is wise, all knowing."
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more than the other and because men support them from their means." [Quran 4:34]
If that were true then women would have equal rights in Muslim dominated countries and they do not by a huge margin so your theory fails in reality not to mention what the Qur'an actually says how women should be treated as I have demonstrated.In Islam it is a man's duty to support his wife, and not the reverse. Islam acknowledges Men and Women are different both physically and emotionally. This does not mean that women are inferior. I’ll get onto why this matters in terms of inheritance later on.
Again how many times are you going to completly miss the point that everything you are saying has the man in charge and women subservient to him?The Qu’rans view on men being “protectors” of Women means that it influences inheritance laws as they are proportional to the duties of the individuals. A Muslim man in Islam has to take charge of supporting his family, his brother's children if his brother dies, his parents when they of course retire and no longer have an income of their own and any children he may have from a previous marriage and his household which would include his wife (or wives)
So you take responsibilty away from a woman which is laughable onto itself then its ok to treat them as second class?A Muslim women however has none of these responsibilities so it makes sense the Man inherits more money if he is the one who gets the burden of responsibility that comes with it.
The issue is your complete lack of understanding how sexist your views and the views of the Qur'an truely are. You have no problem with pologamy as long as its the man marrying multiple women. You then dismiss the sexism directed at women by Islam and counter that they lack responsibility so its acceptable.What is the issue here?
But I do thank you for being so honest. Its rare to see someone defending Islam in a forum so open with their sexism.
And it shows. In spades.I lived in a Muslim dominated society where the population of Muslims were 99%
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
Do you deny that people abused Christianity is similiar manners in the past? Does that mean Christianity is to blame or does it mean the people that abused Christianity are to blame?
Ishaq:208 "When Allah gave permission to his Apostle to fight, the second Aqaba contained conditions involving war which were not in the first act of submission. Now we bound themselves to war against all mankind for Allah and His Apostle. He promised us a reward in Paradise for faithful service. We pledged ourselves to war in complete obedience to Muhammad no matter how evil the circumstances."
Ishaq:472 "Muhammad's Companions are the best in war."
Qur'an:8:7 "Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: 'Wipe the infidels out to the last.'"
Qur'an:8:12 "Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: 'I am with you. Give firmness to the Believers. I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.'"
Qur'an:8:15 "Believers, when you meet unbelieving infidels in battle while you are marching for war, never turn your backs to them. If any turns his back on such a day, unless it be in a stratagem of war, a maneuver to rally his side, he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell, an evil refuge!"
Qur'an:8:39 "So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam."
Qur'an:8:45 "O believers! When you meet an army, be firm, and think of Allah's Name much; that you may prosper."
Qur'an:8:57 "If you meet them in battle, inflict on them such a defeat as would be a lesson for those who come after them, that they may be warned."
Qur'an:8:58 "If you apprehend treachery from any group on the part of a people (with whom you have a treaty), retaliate by breaking off (relations) with them. The infidels should not think that they can bypass (the law or punishment of Allah). Surely they cannot get away." [Another translation reads:] "The unbelieving infidels should not think that they can bypass Islam; surely they cannot escape."
Qur'an:8:59 "The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah's enemy."
Qur'an:8:60 "And make ready against the infidels all of the power you can, including steeds of war [the Noble Qur'an says these are: tanks, planes, missiles, and artillery] to threaten the enemy of Allah and your enemy. And whatever you spend in Allah's Cause shall be repaid unto you." [Another translation reads:] "Prepare against them whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah, and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah's Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you."
Qur'an:8:71 "He will give you mastery over them."
Ishaq:204 "'Men, do you know what you are pledging yourselves to in swearing allegiance to this man?' 'Yes. In swearing allegiance to him we are pledging to wage war against all mankind.'"
Ishaq:471 "We are steadfast trusting Him. We have a Prophet by whom we will conquer all men."
Qur'an:4:77 "Lord, why have You ordained fighting for us, why have You made war compulsory?"
Qur'an:4:71 "Believers, take precautions and advance in detachments or go (on expeditions) together in one troop.'"
Ishaq:322 "Allah said, 'Do not turn away from Muhammad when he is speaking to you. Do not contradict his orders. And do not be a hypocrite, one who pretends to be obedient to him and then disobeys him. Those who do so will receive My vengeance. You must respond to the Apostle when he summons you to war."
Ishaq:544 "Hassan incited the men, reciting: 'This is the time for war. Don't feel safe from us. Our swords will open the door to death.'"
Bukhari:V5B57N1 "Allah's Apostle said, 'A time will come when a group of Muslims will wage a Holy War and it will be said,"Is there anyone who has accompanied Allah's Apostle?" They will say, "Yes." And so victory will be bestowed on them.'"
Ishaq:574 "In faith I do not fear the army of fate. He gave us the blood of their best men to drink when we led our army against them. We are a great army with a pungent smell. And we attack continuously, wherever our enemy is found."
Qur'an:9:5 "When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, beleaguer them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
Qur'an:67:20 "Who is he that will send an army to assist you besides Ar-Rahman?"
Tabari IX:115 "The military expeditions (Ghazawat) in which the Messenger personally participated were twenty-six. Some say there were twenty-seven."
Tabari IX:118 "The armies and raiding parties sent by the Messenger of Allah between the time he came to Medina and his death (ten years) was forty-eight."
Qur'an:48:15 "Those who lagged behind (will say), when you marched forth to capture booty in war: 'Permit us to follow you.'"
Qur'an:47:20 "Those who believe say, 'How is it that no surah was sent down (for us)?' But when a categorical [definite or uncompromising] surah is revealed, and fighting and war (Jihad, holy fighting in Allah's Cause) are ordained, you will see those with diseased hearts looking at you (Muhammad) fainting unto death. Therefore woe to them!"
Tabari VIII:159 "The people began to throw dust at the army, saying, 'You retreating runaways. You fled in the Cause of Allah!' But the Messenger said, 'They are not fleers. Allah willing, they are ones who will return to fight another day."
Qur'an:9:25 "Assuredly, Allah did give you victory on many battlefields.... Allah did send down His forces (angels) which you saw not. He punished the Infidels. Such is their reward."
Qur'an:9:41 "March forth (equipped) with light or heavy arms. Strive with your goods and your lives in the Cause of Allah. That is best for you."
Ishaq:548 "The squadrons of the Messenger, composed of Emigrants and Ansar in iron armor with only their eyes visible, passed by. His company had become great. Woe to you, none can withstand him. It was all due to his prophetic office."
Tabari IX:20 "The Messenger and his companions went directly to Ta'if. They encamped there for a fortnight, waging war. The townsfolk fought the Muslims from behind the fort. None came out in the open. All of the surrounding people surrendered and sent their delegations to the Prophet. After besieging Ta'if for twenty days, Muhammad left and halted at Ji'ranah where the captives of Hunayn were held with their women and children. It is alleged that those captives taken numbered six thousand with women and children."
Tabari VIII:176 "The Prophet sent out his army in divisions. Zubayr was in charge of the left wing. He was ordered to make an entry with his forces from Kuda. Sa'd was commanded to enter with forces by way of Kada. Allah's Apostle said, 'Today is a day for battle and war. Sanctuary is no more. Today the sacred territory is deemed profane [ungodly and sacrilegious].' When one of the Muhajirs [Emigrants] heard him say this, he warned the Apostle, 'It is to be feared that you would resort to violence.' The Prophet ordered Ali to go after him, to take the flag from him, and fight with it himself."
Tabari IX:8 "The Messenger marched with 2,000 Meccans and 10,000 of his Companions who had come with him to facilitate the conquest of Mecca. Thus there were 12,000 in all."
Bukhari:V5B59N320 "Allah's Apostle said, 'When your enemy comes near shoot at them but use your arrows sparingly (so that they are not wasted).'"
Ishaq:572 "Muhammad is the man, an Apostle of my Lord. Evil was the state of our enemy so they lost the day. Fortunes change and we came upon them like lions from the thickets. The armies of Allah came openly, flying at them in rage, so they could not get away. We destroyed them and forced them to surrender. In the former days there was no battle like this; their blood flowed freely. We slew them and left them in the dust. Those who escaped were choked with terror. A multitude of them were slain. This is Allah's war in which those who do not accept Islam will have no helper. War destroyed the tribe and fate the clan."
Ishaq:580 "We helped Allah's Apostle, angry on his account, with a thousand warriors. We carried his flag on the end of our lances. We were his helpers, protecting his banner in deadly combat. We dyed it with blood, for that was its color. We were the Prophet's right arm in Islam. We were his bodyguards before other troops served him. We helped him against his opponents. Allah richly rewarded that fine Prophet Muhammad."
Ishaq:583 "Since you have made Khalid chief of the army and promoted him, he has become a chief indeed, leading an army guided by Allah. Firmly clad in mail, warriors with lances leveled, we are a strong force not unlike a rushing torrent. We smite the wicked while we swear an oath to Muhammad...fighting in the quest of booty."
Ishaq:586 "Red blood flowed because of our rage."
Ishaq:587 "Ka'b reacted to the Apostle's decision. He said, 'We put an end to doubt at Khaybar. If our swords could have spoken, their blades would have said, "Give us Daus or Thaqif. We will tear off the roofs in Wajj. We will make homes desolate. Our cavalry will come upon you leaving behind a tangled mass. When we assault a town they sound a cry of alarm but our sharp cutting swords flash like lightning. By them we bring death to those who struggle against us. Flowing blood was mingled with saffron the morn the forces met. They were taken by surprise and we surrounded their walls with our troops. Our leader, the Prophet, was firm, steadfast, and full of wisdom. He was not frivolous nor light minded. We obey our Prophet and we obey a Lord who is Compassionate [Ar-Rahman]. We make you partners in peace and war. If you refuse we will fight you doggedly."
Ishaq:602 "The Apostle ordered Muslims to prepare for a military expedition so that he could raid the Byzantines."
Qur'an:47:4 "When you clash with unbelieving Infidels in battle, strike and overpower them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, make them prisoners in bondage until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded. He lets you fight in order to test you. Those who are slain in Allah's Cause will never have their deeds go to waste."
Qur'an:61:14 "O Muslims! Be helpers of Allah...We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, and they prevailed."
Ishaq:441 "A sharp sword in the hand of a brave man kills his adversary."
Muslim:C34B20N4669 "The Prophet said: 'He who equips a warrior in the Way of Allah is like one who actually fights and he who looks after the family of a warrior in the Allah's Cause in fact participated in the battle.'"
Muslim:52B20N4711 "I heard the Messenger delivering a sermon from the pulpit: 'Prepare to meet them with as much strength as you can afford. Beware, strength consists in archery. Beware, strength consists in archery. Beware, strength consists in archery.'"
Keep it up Jallman. Thats just a starting point
And yes Christians can say we are less violent in our texts and most importantly in our actions because our book and teachings are far less violent in their teachings than those in Islam.
Only someone like yourself completely ignorant about the religious texts and complete lack of historical knowledge would ever proclaim they were equal.
PS. I had far more quotes but I simply ran out of room to post them all
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
Something else more fun from my book! All studies of suicide attacks from 1980 to 2004 cited foreign occupation as the main reason. This thing is just full of great stuff. Also only 7% of muslims qualify as radicals!
Last edited by MKULTRABOY; 07-13-10 at 01:44 PM.
National Socialist Council of Nagaland
There are literally dozens of factions of Irish terrorist organizations operating
Lord's Resistance Army
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan claim Christianity
Army of God
Christian Patriots Defense League
Soldiers of God
Dragons of God
The Promise Keepers (a particularly nasty order of Christian extremists devoted ot terrorising women)
Recently, the Hutaree were put down.
We could keep going.