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Thread: Holder Floats Possibility of Racial Profiling Suit Against Arizona

  1. #31
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    Re: Holder Floats Possibility of Racial Profiling Suit Against Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    There's nothing else to say other than that you're misinterpreting what you're reading. That statement comes from a list of four types of documents that will stop the process.
    1) AZ Driver's License
    2) AZ Non-operators permit
    3) Tribal something or other
    4) What you quoted.

    If a particular document requires proof of citizenship for issuance, that document will be accepted under this AZ law. If not, the document does not fall under that 4th item.

    So I'm going to ask YOU to drop YOUR ridiculous claim.
    You are hopeless dude.

    A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN
    37 ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON
    38 PROVIDES TO THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:


    What part of ANY OF THE FOLLOWING don't you get? 1,2,3 AND 4! It doesn't say ANY OF THE FOLLOWING EXCEPT 4! Talk about sad.

    You are busted for your pathetic claim.

    Grow some balls and admit your mistake. This is really getting pathetic on your part.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

    John Adams

  2. #32
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    Re: Holder Floats Possibility of Racial Profiling Suit Against Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    You are hopeless dude.

    A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN
    37 ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON
    38 PROVIDES TO THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:


    What part of ANY OF THE FOLLOWING don't you get? 1,2,3 AND 4!

    You are busted for your pathetic claim.

    Grow some balls and admit your mistake. This is really getting pathetic on your part.
    For God's sake. I know that any of the four will do. What I'm telling you is that #4 does not actually encompass any and all government-issued ID's.

    Let's say I have a Widget Certification Card, issued by the state of Ohio. Widget Certification Cards do not require proof of citizenship, they only require me to verify that I am an expert Widgeter via a written test.

    The Widget Card will not stop my detention.

    Several states do not require proof of citizenship for their driver's licenses. Those licenses will not get you out of detention.
    Last edited by Deuce; 07-11-10 at 07:02 PM.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  3. #33
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    Re: Holder Floats Possibility of Racial Profiling Suit Against Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    For God's sake. I know that any of the four will do. What I'm telling you is that #4 does not actually encompass any and all government-issued ID's.

    Let's say I have a Widget Certification Card, issued by the state of Ohio. Widget Certification Cards do not require proof of citizenship, they only require me to verify that I am an expert Widgeter via a written test.

    The Widget Card will not stop my detention.
    For God's sake READ THE WORDS

    4. IF THE ENTITY REQUIRES PROOF OF LEGAL PRESENCE IN THE UNITED
    STATES BEFORE ISSUANCE, ANY VALID UNITED STATES FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL
    GOVERNMENT ISSUED IDENTIFICATION
    .


    What part of that are you NOT understanding?
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

    John Adams

  4. #34
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    Re: Holder Floats Possibility of Racial Profiling Suit Against Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    For God's sake READ THE WORDS

    4. IF THE ENTITY REQUIRES PROOF OF LEGAL PRESENCE IN THE UNITED
    STATES BEFORE ISSUANCE
    , ANY VALID UNITED STATES FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL
    GOVERNMENT ISSUED IDENTIFICATION.


    What part of that are you NOT understanding?
    Which part of the first half of the sentence do you not understand?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  5. #35
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    Re: Holder Floats Possibility of Racial Profiling Suit Against Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Which part of the first half of the sentence do you not understand?
    Nothing! I get it. You obviously dont or you would drop this "only Arizona id is valid" Bull****.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

    John Adams

  6. #36
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    Re: Holder Floats Possibility of Racial Profiling Suit Against Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Nothing! I get it. You obviously dont or you would drop this "only Arizona id is valid" Bull****.
    Oh, please, quote where I said only an Arizona license is valid. I've repeatedly said that SOME states don't require proof of legal status.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    As I understand it, an Arizona driver's license ends the investigation. How about a Minnesota license?

    Edit: Read the bill again. If the ID I'm showing him requires proof of citizenship, then it is considered good enough. However, not all states require citizenship to be proven to get a driver's license, are the officers going to memorize the list? How about other types of ID? Chances are the officer wont immediately know. Also, what if I don't have my wallet on me? Walking down the street does not require such a thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Nope! (see edit)

    Get-out-of-detainment cards:
    1. A valid Arizona driver license.
    2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.
    3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.
    4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification.

    Some driver's licenses aren't covered, and even the ones that are covered are dependent upon the officer's memory of whether that particular form of ID requires proof of legal presence.

    Switching "reasonable suspicion" to "probable cause" and "lawful contact" to "lawful detainment" would end any issue I have with the law. The federal vs. state jurisdiction pissing match is above my pay grade and outside of anything I'm interested in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    No, it's not any government issued ID. Did you miss the word "IF" at the start? Some ID's do not require proof of citizenship for issuance. Those ID's are not going to get you out of detainment. This includes the driver's licenses issued by, if I remember right, eleven states.

    edit: ten?

    edit2: seems that situation may have changed. investigating further. Utah and New Mexico seem to not require citizenship proof. Others in the ten may have changed recently.

    edit3: http://www.newmexicocivilrightslaw.c...migration-law/
    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    There's nothing else to say other than that you're misinterpreting what you're reading. That statement comes from a list of four types of documents that will stop the process.
    1) AZ Driver's License
    2) AZ Non-operators permit
    3) Tribal something or other
    4) What you quoted.

    If a particular document requires proof of citizenship for issuance, that document will be accepted under this AZ law. If not, the document does not fall under that 4th item.

    So I'm going to ask YOU to drop YOUR ridiculous claim.



    Edit again: Worthy of consideration: If any government ID would satisfy, why bother breaking it down into four types?
    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    For God's sake. I know that any of the four will do. What I'm telling you is that #4 does not actually encompass any and all government-issued ID's.

    Let's say I have a Widget Certification Card, issued by the state of Ohio. Widget Certification Cards do not require proof of citizenship, they only require me to verify that I am an expert Widgeter via a written test.

    The Widget Card will not stop my detention.

    Several states do not require proof of citizenship for their driver's licenses. Those licenses will not get you out of detention.
    Did you read any of these!?

    Also, apparently the number of such states is down to 4.
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/201007...s/ynews_ts3010

    The guidelines, promulgated by a state peace officers group, say that police can presume that a person who produces a valid driver's license is a citizen or legal resident. But if someone holds a license from one of four states that do not require proof of citizenship — Illinois, New Mexico, Utah or Washington — the guidelines say the officer cannot presume citizenship.
    Tex, first you pasted out of context parts of the bill that referred to car impounding, and now you're working off a straw man. Just admit you made an error.
    Last edited by Deuce; 07-11-10 at 07:31 PM.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  7. #37
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    Re: Holder Floats Possibility of Racial Profiling Suit Against Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Oh, please, quote where I said only an Arizona license is valid. I've repeatedly said that SOME states don't require proof of legal status.
    Actually NO you haven't been saying that. You've been arguing that only Arizona license is valid for 2 pages now.

    I said

    If you have valid ID he can't go anywhere beyond that. Driver's license is considered valid. He can't explore beyond that. Thats also part of the law.
    Then you argued:

    As I understand it, an Arizona driver's license ends the investigation. How about a Minnesota license?
    and another:

    Some driver's licenses aren't covered, and even the ones that are covered are dependent upon the officer's memory of whether that particular form of ID requires proof of legal presence.
    How many times must I quote you?

    Stop making stuff up. ANY state issued driver's license would be accepted. PERIOD end of story.

    Also, apparently the number of such states is down to 4.
    Arizona's ID requirements vary for establishing citizenship - Yahoo! News

    Tex, first you pasted out of context parts of the bill that referred to car impounding, and now you're working off a straw man. Just admit you made an error.
    Obviously once again you didn't read the link. It NEVER quotes law. It claims "guildlines" by one group without verifiication.

    It truely is pathetic to watch you try and pretend the law doesn't say ANY VALID UNITED STATES FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL
    GOVERNMENT ISSUED IDENTIFICATION.

    Thats the LAW. Not a yahoo newsletter and not "guildlines" from one group.

    Admit you ****ed up and stop pretending you didn't argue only Arizona ID is allowed because I already quoted you directly that's exactly what you've been arguing.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

    John Adams

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    Re: Holder Floats Possibility of Racial Profiling Suit Against Arizona

    Tex, I can't believe you're still holding onto that straw man. I clearly and repeatedly said SOME states do not require proof of legal status for a DL. And here you go and claim I said ALL. There's a rather important difference.

    I tried quoting you the law, but you're misreading it. That first half of the sentence? You seem to be ignoring it entirely.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  9. #39
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    Re: Holder Floats Possibility of Racial Profiling Suit Against Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Tex, I can't believe you're still holding onto that straw man. I clearly and repeatedly said SOME states do not require proof of legal status for a DL. And here you go and claim I said ALL. There's a rather important difference.

    I tried quoting you the law, but you're misreading it. That first half of the sentence? You seem to be ignoring it entirely.
    I know its fun to try and make stuff up but its not helping your case.

    The law is quite clear. ANY VALID UNITED STATES FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL
    GOVERNMENT ISSUED IDENTIFICATION.

    Nothing in the first part of that sentence invalidates the second part.

    You are desperatly and shamfully trying to argue something that doesn't exist in the law. If they wanted to say only some government issued IDs were valid they would have said excatly that but they didn't. Now stop this. You are only embarrassing yourself.


    I'll make this even simpler for you.

    Name one state driver's license that doesn't put your address on it.

    Go ahead.
    Last edited by texmaster; 07-11-10 at 07:39 PM.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

    John Adams

  10. #40
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    Re: Holder Floats Possibility of Racial Profiling Suit Against Arizona

    And before you try wiggling again with Minnesota, here are the requirements for obtaining a driver's license or state ID

    * An application for a drivers license (must be signed by one of the parents or legal guardians)
    * Proper identification (the list of approved documents can be found in the Minnesota Driver handbook)
    * A Social Security number

    * Proper forms from driver education and/or driver training courses

    So yes Minnesota would be VALID. Sigh. This is just sad you are trying to dodge this.

    https://driversed.com/dmv/minnesota-apply-dl.aspx
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

    John Adams

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