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Thread: Holder Floats Possibility of Racial Profiling Suit Against Arizona

  1. #91
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    Re: Holder Floats Possibility of Racial Profiling Suit Against Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Until you want to discuss this without the hyperbole or over exaggeration then you can proceed to have a conversation with yourself. Seeing how this long doesn't allow you to be detained for not having documentation simply for walking down the street or sitting in your front yard I'm not dealing with your moronic hypothetical.
    Sorry, here I was assuming you'd actually read the last six pages. Instead of walking down the street, read it as "walking down the street and then I jaywalk."
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Holder Floats Possibility of Racial Profiling Suit Against Arizona

    I have read the other pages, nothing in it indicated you meant some kind of crime was being commited. You know, those ever pervasive "sitting in ones front yards" rule violations and of course when I talk about jaywalking I don't say jaywalking but "walking down the street".

    I'm unsure Jaywalking would even apply to this law as nothing occurs in a routine jaywalking charge to my knowledge that would provide reasonable suspicion. Its not like a traffic stop where you ask for ID to my knowledge (perhaps an officer could inform us. What with never having been stopped for it I don't have any knowledge of it).

    Even so...if it is routine for the cops to ask for ID while jaywalking then again. Person A seems to be commiting a crime (jaywalking) giving cops reason to stop them, cops ask for ID as is routine (in this scenario) and finds he doesn't have one, this gives reasonable suspicion that the person may not be here legally giving office the ability to further investigate for asking for proof of citizenship. If none is able to be provided he can be detained until an investigation and proper legal action can be taken. I see nothing wrong with this scenario. Someone violates the law, routine proceedure is followed, routine procedure procudes situation where its reasonable to assume an illegal action has taken place, upon further investigation probable cause is found, person is detained.

    Stop -> Something unusual that points to a potential crime -> Reasonable Suspicion -> Evidence Found -> probable cause -> detention.

    This is a standard forumula for law enforcement. Simply because you dislike the law in this particular case doens't make it invalid.

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    Re: Holder Floats Possibility of Racial Profiling Suit Against Arizona

    At what point did I ever argue that the law was invalid?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Holder Floats Possibility of Racial Profiling Suit Against Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    And its idiotic for him to be worried about that.
    Of course it is for him

    There has to be reasonable suspicion the person is illegal that is made DURING an otherwise lawful police contact. The way the law is written, "racial profiling" is specifically forbidden.

    For instance, if a cop sees a dude standing in front of Price Smart or Howm Depot and goes "that guy LOOKS illegal, I'll check him out"...not to be, unless, the cop decides to enforce loitering laws then, he'll have a green light

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    Re: Holder Floats Possibility of Racial Profiling Suit Against Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    At what point did I ever argue that the law was invalid?
    My apologizes. Not invalid. Just worthy of having a higher standard than the same procedures being enforced for other instances where a reasonable suspicion of a violation of another law occurs in the process of investigating or taking action in regards to an illegal act.

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    Re: Holder Floats Possibility of Racial Profiling Suit Against Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    My apologizes. Not invalid. Just worthy of having a higher standard than the same procedures being enforced for other instances where a reasonable suspicion of a violation of another law occurs in the process of investigating or taking action in regards to an illegal act.
    Weird how sometimes people hold a different opinion than you do, isn't it? I prefer less ambiguity and stricter standards in law enforcement. It never occured to me that this opinion is somehow insulting to people, but the way this thread is going you might conclude that it is.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Holder Floats Possibility of Racial Profiling Suit Against Arizona

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Until you want to discuss this without the hyperbole or over exaggeration then you can proceed to have a conversation with yourself. Seeing how this long doesn't allow you to be detained for not having documentation simply for walking down the street or sitting in your front yard I'm not dealing with your moronic hypothetical.
    But without hyperbole or exaggeration, Deuce may not be able to post anymore!!
    "I believe in a Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."

    --Albert Einstein, 1929

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    Re: Holder Floats Possibility of Racial Profiling Suit Against Arizona

    Nope, your opinion when applied completely disproportaintly, never really starting threads concernings the leagues of ambiguity already in the vast majority of our law but railing against this one constantly mixed with your attempts to act like this is some over arching issue for you rather than one specific about this law due to your feelings about this law and what this laws purposes for is what's rather insulting.

    Reasonable Suspicion is not more "ambiguous" here then it is in the plethora of other places in the law that its used, yet prior to this I haven't seen you making threads or jumping into threads complaining about its ambiguity. Since this has happened I've not seen you make this argument about any other uses of reasonable suspicion, save for with this law. And even Probable Cause is in and of itself an ambiguous tandard, just like reasonable suspicion, that does not have strict and definitive guidelines of what exactly fits it.

    What's insulting is your dishonest attempt of portraying that this for you is an issue of ambiguity when its clear as day the issue is your dislike for a law aimed at curtailing illegal immigration despite it using existing law and existing legal standards as the basis for it.

    I don't care when people hold a different opinion then me, I just have issues when they piss on my leg and tell me its raining which is what your attempted pleas of "civil liberties" is when one views the inconstistancies of your vigor at speaking in the defense of such.

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    Re: Holder Floats Possibility of Racial Profiling Suit Against Arizona

    Perhaps ambiguity is not a good choice of words. Stricter standard, on the other hand, is certainly applicable. And here again, you act insulted for some reason, saying that I'm "pissing on your leg and calling it rain."

    I gave my opinion and never suggested that others must share it. I don't particularly care what you think about it. You, on the other hand, are acting as if your opinion is the only valid one, and that anybody who thinks differently must be some sort of bad person.

    I have no problem with curtailing illegal immigration, but you're falling back on the standard conservative absolutism: If you oppose this law you're in favor of illegal immigration! Really? You don't think maybe there's something in between?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Holder Floats Possibility of Racial Profiling Suit Against Arizona

    Yes, ambiguity wasn't a good choice of words, and it was what I was basing my argument on. Don't get pissy when I respond to the words YOU ACTUALLY SAY.

    Yes, you're pissing on my leg and calling it rain. That's what's insulting, not your opinion. I don't give a damn if you have an opinion other than me. What I do give a damn about is when you try to pretty up your opinion as "Defending Civil Rights" when its damn well apparent by your actions in this thread, and others, and your lack of action regarding the exact same standard being used in dozens upon dozens of laws, that its nothing to do with "defending civil rights" and everything to do with "attacking this law because I dislike it and dislike what its trying to do". If it was honestly about Civil Liberties the "ambiguity" could've caused you would not be so narrowly focused on a singular, solitary law that is using it when there's a multitude of them that are being used. Your actions show your supposed reasoning to be absolutely dishonest, attempting to prop up the reasons for why you're attacking this law behind something you view as more "noble" and harder to attack instead of being honest and transparent about your displeasure with THIS law and the application of legal standards simply on THIS law and that its nothing to do with "civil liberties" this is infringing upon but your disagreement with the purpose of THIS LAW.

    Those legal standards didn't magically create themselves for this law. The ambiguity has been there for quite a long time. Your attempts at acting like this is anything to do with Civil Liberties and some broad reaching thing with you when you only bitch and complain about it with regards to this law is insultingly dishonest and insulting to the intelligence of everyone discussing it with you.

    Not your opinion, your opinion...poorly put across by making statements that suggest the law does something it doesn't while backpedaling and going "Well I mean, it should be obvious that i MEANT to say doing illegal activity while sitting on your front lawn, I mean really, can't you read minds? I shouldn't have to actually, you know, TYPE things"...is something I disagree with but I'm not insulted by. Your apparent faux "CIVIL LIBERTIES" rally cry is what is insulting.

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