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Federal Gay Marriage Ban Is Ruled Unconstitutional

Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban is Ruled Unconstitutional

The federal law banning gay marriage is unconstitutional because it interferes with the right of a state to define the institution
It ruled in favor of a state's right to define marriage, which means state's like mine who ban it have every right to do so.
Actually I think the state and federal government have no business being in the marriage business, nor do the people have a right to interfere with a private institution and it's affairs or beliefs.
 
Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban is Ruled Unconstitutional

I'm going to say something, and I'm going to hope that the two of you both understand the level of honesty that I operate at enough to understand that I'm serious.

I think that if SSM is legalized, failing to also legalize polygamy or group marriage would be discriminatory and hypocritical. I think at some point it will be recognized as discriminatory, whether that takes 2 years or 20.

First, let me say I do think you're serious. Let me also say based on your views on issues I think you've come to this view not because of honest thought, but because it allows your mind to justify the use of the polygamy argument as when the obvious counters to it come out you can proclaim others hypocritical and thus assert a higher ground. Or, more precisely, you want this to be true and thus you've fashioned a view point that will allow it...a view point that I don't think you'd have come to if not for your stances on gay marriage. This does not invalidate it, nor do I think its dishonest, but I don't think its coming from a reasoned stand point but rather a biased stand point of your brain fashioning an argument against something that is used against you.

Is there evidence to demonstrate that adult-only polygamous marriage is a societal negative? Not that I know of. Would it be somewhat more complex legally? Yes, but that could be handled... there are legal complications in SSM that aren't as typically encountered in traditional marriage, namely custody issues for children that are genetically the product of one partner and an outsider by consent of the couple. If we can handle that some smart group of lawyers can come up with a legal structure to handle polygamy/group marriage.

First, the legal differences between the difficulties in polygamy and the difficulties in Same Sex Marriage is astronomically large. For example, at its barest form, polygamy could enable every individual within the united states theoretically have power of attorney over every other entity and all paying one large joint tax plan. Is that ridiculous to the nth degree? Absolutely. Is it likely? No. But it highlights just how HUGE of a difference in legislation and practice it would be and nothing even close to that big or glaring is applicable in same sex issues. The vast majority of laws regarding marriage and the benefits that come with it would be a relatively minor tweak with allowing SSM where as with polygamy a large amount of laws would need to be rewritten if not just created all together. Additionally the potential for abuse, IE people using the joining for nothing but the benefits bestowed upon it such as for example green cards, would be far greater with polygamy. SSM is a relatively small tweak, polygamy would be a gigantic rewrite.

Secondly, on protected status. As I've already stated, discrimination based on gender is prohibited, there is no such protection against discrimination based on amount. Additionally if one is to count sexual orientation as a protected state there would need to be actual sufficient evidence to suggest that polygamy is somehow an "orientation" that one has. Could it reach that point? Perhaps, but there is no evidence no definition of such at this time so you're arguing a completely baseless hypothetical against a definitive fact, which is a worthless argument. But I go back to my whole point, which no one has really commented on at all save for saying "Um, I've never seen it before so it must not be good but I can't tell you why!", is that gender discrimination is unconstitutional which is what the current marriage laws is.

To be frank, I consider a pro-SSM / Anti-Polygamy position to be hypocritical.

You may consider the argument a hypocritical one, but I believe that to be an amazingly lacking conclusion to state so broadly and generally. It CAN be a hypocritical one depending on the reasons one says gay marriage should be legalized...I agree with you in regards to the "love" thing (I don't, and will never, use that argument because "love" isn't required for marriage.) I agree with you in regards to the automatically equating polygamy to using underage girls, however again you won't see me make that argument.

My argument is that there is no protected class that is being discriminated against in their inability to marry multiple people with regards to polygamy, and more to the point that the immense rewrite of the laws and the amount of problems and pitfalls it could cause outweigh the benefit to the government in bestowing the benefits to a coupling of more than 2 people. Highlighting a handful of legal issues with SSM, the majority of which could equally or even more so apply to polygamy, does not prove it to be hypocritical when there would be as many to the power of 10 likely needed for polygamy. I have not seen anywhere near the same amount of potential legal pitfalls and issues of system shock that could be put on the systems we have here in this country with regards to benefits for SSM as I have for polygamy. Until such can be shown for either the notion that its hypocritical for me to be for one or against another is ridiculous.
 
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Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban is Ruled Unconstitutional

but due to the standard that DEFINES MARRIAGE

And who says we can't change the legal, governmental standard? We change laws and legal standard routinely.
 
Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban is Ruled Unconstitutional

I don't know what all the fuss is over this decision when it will be overturned by the district court and rightfully so........Again we have Liberal judges making law instead of interpreting it............
 
Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban is Ruled Unconstitutional

I don't know what all the fuss is over this decision when it will be overturned by the district court and rightfully so........Again we have Liberal judges making law instead of interpreting it............

Based on what Navy? How is this ruling inappropriate legally?
 
Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban is Ruled Unconstitutional

Based on what Navy? How is this ruling inappropriate legally?

Its unconstitutional as al the legal pundits are saying...............
 
You make several mistakes. There are reasons to include marriage of gays but not polygamy. They have been stated. You can ignore them, but that does not make them go away.

As I said, there isn't a single argument made against polygamy that cannot be classified as discriminatory or bigoted, the exact same argument many on the left make today against the arguments the other side makes against gay marriage.

No one is claiming that is some new standard. We are stating that is the reason why the government has any argument to be involved in marriage.

Of course they are claiming it or they would never bring it up as an argument in the first place.

The number of countries that allow same sex marriage is not an argument that it is beneficial, and is not being claimed as such.

Of course it is if you claim the benefits of allowing polygamists to marry and be reconized by the state is a legitimate argument against polygamists which we both know if patently false.
 
The way I see it, unless the government can show demonstrable harm of an activity they don't have a right to ban it. So, yes, you might "have to" allow polygamy. Oh dear, that slippery slope of civil rights. I'm shaking.

Unless there's demonstrable harm in polygamy. The only possibility I can think of is child custody in the event of a divorce. Say 5 people are a married group, they all have children raised in that home, but one of the biological parents wants to split. Who gets custody? A definitely complicated issue, legally speaking. But is that harm?

You need to move away from the historical view of polygamy. It's often harmful not because of its nature, but because of the manner in which people have gone about it. Polygamy is often equated with goofy cultists where one man has several (often underage) wives who are basically brainwashed. Using that as a basis for law, however, would be like banning firearms because some people shot up a bank. Oh wait. :p

This is the only honest argument on gay marriage. Open to all alternative lifestyles. The only place I disagree with you is the claim of showing "demonstrable harm" That would be extremely hard to prove without taking a moral stance.
 
Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban is Ruled Unconstitutional

Based on what Navy? How is this ruling inappropriate legally?

Thats easy. He used personal bias to claim anyone against gay marriage was illigitimate then he ignored the law that allowed the federal government to decide on social seciurty benifits, not the state.

He has no legal leg to stand on. If you can point to any law I'd love to see it.
 
Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban is Ruled Unconstitutional

Hey, why don't we save each other a lot of time and just reread all the hundred other threads about gay marriage instead of just repeating the same arguments over and over again?
 
Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban is Ruled Unconstitutional

Its unconstitutional as al the legal pundits are saying...............

The only pundits I can find saying it will be overturned are far right pundits. Got any rational analysis of the ruling that say it will be overturned?
 
Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban is Ruled Unconstitutional

Thats easy. He used personal bias to claim anyone against gay marriage was illigitimate then he ignored the law that allowed the federal government to decide on social seciurty benifits, not the state.

He has no legal leg to stand on. If you can point to any law I'd love to see it.

You do realize there is a significant difference between social security(a federal program), and defining marriage(traditionally state prerogative)? I think you can see that.
 
Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban is Ruled Unconstitutional

You do realize there is a significant difference between social security(a federal program), and defining marriage(traditionally state prerogative)? I think you can see that.

Of course but we are talking about the benifits marriage provides on the federal level. A state cannot dictate what benifits the feds give out.

That is why this judge has no legal leg to stand on.

The very reason this is a federal issue is because the feds dictate social security benefits and other benefits afforded to married couples.

This is why we have Congress and Amendments but many liberals like this judge don't want to play by the rules and want to circumvent the system by haveing liberal judges use personal opinion to rewrite law.
 
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Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban is Ruled Unconstitutional

Ahh yes. I am confounded by the amazing (pseudo)intellectual argument of "people are a commodity." You paint yourself as some sort of intellectual superior amongst mere mortals like myself, but you don't seem to grasp basic human emotions and how that might actually affect things.

Intellectual superiority? Well thank you and I would add that it's a rare Progressive who shares their opinion on this otherwise obvious fact.

And might I say that your decision to rush to take the commodity reference out of context is typical of the Progressive... But towards educating the reader who might erroneously lend credence to this farce; commodities are those things which people find useful. A moment invested in simply looking the term up in Webster's or other such resource will verify this... and it's not a complex calculation that people find people useful...

Beyond that, your argument serves no other purpose than simple obscurance. It is a fact that people in cramped population centers will value individual human life less than those in rural vastly less densely populated areas, with such hardly being a debatable point. Which was the point...

So with that said I'll only add:
SWEET FAIL!
 
Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban is Ruled Unconstitutional

Just found this forum. And picked out a thread at random.
Djeezes, djeezes, djeezes.
Everyone with an ounce of common sense regards homosexuality and same sex marriage as OK as 2 + 2 makes 4. Problem? What problem?
It's intellectuals like PubliusInfinitu that spend their entire life reaching multiple orgasms by justifying the unjustifiable that make my day.


Though I'm not French, I live in France. Help, I must be doomed.

Time for a Stella.

OUTSTANDING OBSCURANCE Stella!

First rate obfuscation... it rallies the pretense of relevance without bearing any of the responsiblity to actually engage the debate, which would otherwise be expected of a participant.

It has it all; fallacious, spurious reasoning and just the right measure of ad populum to bolster those feelings of acceptance that every seeker of the middle way craves...

.

.

.

.

.

.

ROFLMNAO.... Progressives...
 
You make several mistakes. There are reasons to include marriage of gays but not polygamy. They have been stated. You can ignore them, but that does not make them go away.

No one is claiming that is some new standard. We are stating that is the reason why the government has any argument to be involved in marriage.

The number of countries that allow same sex marriage is not an argument that it is beneficial, and is not being claimed as such.

Actually, I have to disagree with you here. Who says polygamy must be illegal?. As with homosexuality, how people conduct their personal lives is none of the government's business. As long as they are not trampling the rights of others, the government should just keep it's nose out of where it does not belong.
 
Actually, I have to disagree with you here. Who says polygamy must be illegal?. As with homosexuality, how people conduct their personal lives is none of the government's business. As long as they are not trampling the rights of others, the government should just keep it's nose out of where it does not belong.

He's saying there's no particular reason that legalizing same-sex marriage means you MUST legalize polygamy. They're different situations with different arguments to be made.
 
This is the only honest argument on gay marriage. Open to all alternative lifestyles. The only place I disagree with you is the claim of showing "demonstrable harm" That would be extremely hard to prove without taking a moral stance.

Maybe that says something about the situation.
 
Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban is Ruled Unconstitutional

PubliusInfinitum said:
redress said:
Publius Infinitum said:
ROFLMNAO! Sweet Mother whatta trainwreck.

First: how does noting that Polygamy falls outside the established standard of marriage and accurately comparing that joining of more than two individuals is synonymous with the standard violating joining of two outies... or two inies... become 'a sure sign of losing'?

How does that work? Any chance you can show us your math on that one?

(FLAME>>> } Ok, slowing this down for you: when you have to change the subject and appeal to emotion by bringing in something unrelated, it is a sign you are losing.

I see... So you feel that specifically speaking to the issue at hand, stating in specific and plain terms, the elements of the issue, outlining each in stark detail; you feel that this is an attempt to change the subject?

Basically, you are helpless to discuss the issue... and as a result of your inability to muster the discipline to refrain from commenting upon an issue in which you're clearily ill-equipped to speak, you felt that the best ya could do was to trot out a series of specious cliches; which have no record of working in verbal exchanges; and less where the discussion is executed through written discourse...

ROFLMNAO... Leftists...


Changing the subject from gay marriage to polygamy is not specifically speaking to the issues at hand. In point of fact, it's an effort to evade the issue at hand, since you cannot argue against it. It's not my fault you are helpless to discuss the issue and are clearly ill-equipped to discuss.

Interesting... so the tactic is to simply ignore the argument and restate your refuted point... Now last time I checked, reposting refuted argument, serves no other purpose than to troll the debate in hopes of emflaming the discussion.

Or would you care to demonstrate for the board, the precise element of your most recent statement, the specific element of the argument to which you were responding? Now FTR: simply citing and quoting a statement, does not in and of itself qualify the response as engaging the argument.

Making a comparison for the purposes of demonstrating that a given policy would lead to further decadence of the relevant standard, BY DEFAULT speaks SPECIFICALLY TO THE RELEVANT ISSUE!

The issue here is the desire on the part of homosexuals to secure the legitimacy which THEY FEEL, only 'marriage' can provide... Noting the standard of marriage provides for TWO INDIVIDUALS, REPRESENTING EACH OF THE DISTINCT GENDERS and that where those who come to demand that they should be allowed to lower the marriage standard because they desire to enter into marriage with a person of the same gender must inevitably require that those who desire to enter into marriage with MORE THAN THE STANDARD TWO INDIVIDUALS is NOT A CHANGING OF THE SUBJECT...

PERIOD!

Given that this fatally flawed element of your argument rests at the foundation of your entire argument, the balance of your response is dismissed without further consideration.

But, as failed reasoning goes... this is a

SWEET FAIL!
 
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Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban is Ruled Unconstitutional

The only pundits I can find saying it will be overturned are far right pundits. Got any rational analysis of the ruling that say it will be overturned?

Again we find the Progressive appealing to popularity... She makes no attempt to engage the argument of ANY pundit, but instead simply demands through implication that the pundits are of the mythical 'far-right'; and that solely because of that ethereal conclusion, their analysis is invalid.

Now understand friends the tactic at play here... Let's take a look at the same statement and simply change the label of those she laments:

The only pundits I can find saying it will be overturned are JEWISH pundits. Got any rational analysis of the ruling that say it will be overturned?

Now rest assured that I am not implying that the member is anti-semitic... I am simply pointing out that the species of reasoning is precisely the same... Rancid ad populum...

Had the member come to quote the relevant argument of the respective pundits, advancing a logically valid, intellectually sound rebuttal of their stated perspectives, then their ideology, their religion of their favorite color, would all be IRRELEVANT... and quite by default. But that's not what she did... is it?
 
Actually, I have to disagree with you here. Who says polygamy must be illegal?. As with homosexuality, how people conduct their personal lives is none of the government's business. As long as they are not trampling the rights of others, the government should just keep it's nose out of where it does not belong.

I am not saying it should be illegal. I am saying it is not the same thing as gay marriage, and the reasons to support gay marriage do not necessarily include polygamy.
 
Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban is Ruled Unconstitutional

Again we find the Progressive appealing to popularity... She makes no attempt to engage the argument of ANY pundit, but instead simply demands through implication that the pundits are of the mythical 'far-right'; and that solely because of that ethereal conclusion, their analysis is invalid.

Now understand friends the tactic at play here... Let's take a look at the same statement and simply change the label of those she laments:



Now rest assured that I am not implying that the member is anti-semitic... I am simply pointing out that the species of reasoning is precisely the same... Rancid ad populum...

Had the member come to quote the relevant argument of the respective pundits, advancing a logically valid, intellectually sound rebuttal of their stated perspectives, then their ideology, their religion of their favorite color, would all be IRRELEVANT... and quite by default. But that's not what she did... is it?

I was replying to a post that, surprise, talked about pundits saying this would be overturned. I asked for more information. You then took that out of context and tried to make it something it is clearly not. It is hilarious that you try and hold me to a standard that you did not some one who agrees with you.
 
I think what people are saying in regards to the polygamy thing is that the arguments that justify homosexual marriage would also justify polygamy. I agree that it bringing polygamy into things is a red herring and serves no purpose in regards to the gay marriage debate.

And PubliusInfinitu: I understand that you are new here and I would like to add some advice. Please stop with the massive red text. This isn't an online shouting (via typing) match, and being the boldest doesn't make someone correct. I am anti gay marriage as well, but posting with big red letters and saying "typical progressive/leftist" really isn't going to do much good in advancing our position.
 
Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban is Ruled Unconstitutional

ROFLMNAO! Sweet Mother whatta trainwreck.

I would agree. Your post is a complete trainwreck. It is obvious that you have either no or limited knowledge on this issue. Here. Let me help educate you.
First: how does noting that Polygamy falls outside the established standard of marriage and accurately comparing that joining of more than two individuals is synonymous with the standard violating joining of two outies... or two inies... become 'a sure sign of losing'?

How does that work? Any chance you can show us your math on that one?

It's called a red herring logical fallacy. There. Now you've learned something. Here. Let me see if I can teach you some more.



Second: No one has argued that Polygamy is identical to the sexual deviancy of homosexuality...

Aw... isn't that cute. You used the word deviancy. Let's see how smart you are. Prove that homosexuality is deviant. Now, remember, in order to do that, you are going to have to accurately define the word deviant. Get your dictionary out.

Third: Who has suggested that Polygamy is a sexual orientation?

Excellent. You just helped prove me right. Since it is not, it is a red herring to the issue and is not comparable. You are really good at helping me win debates.

Fourth: Polygamists would vehemently dispute your assertion that their 'lifestyle choice' is not beneficial... And they believe it every BIT as much as the pathetic sexual deviants who chose to seek sexual gratification through intercourse with individuals of their own gender; just as the pathetic sexual deviants who chose to seek sexual gratification through intercourse with individuals which have yet to grow to the age of consent, OKA: Pedophiles, VEHEMENTLY BELIEVE THAT THEIR PARTICULAR KINK is beneficial.

If there are no studies that show it, then it doesn't exist. I have plenty of studies that show the benefits of GM. Let's see you prove the benefits of plural marriage. Evidence and links are the only things that will suffice.

There, now I have given you a lesson on evidence. Let's see if you can handle it.

Fifth: how does a deviant, abnormal sexual orientation become acceptable as a means to violate the established, reasonable, well founded marriage standard that marriage consist of two individuals, each representing the distinct genders; and Polygamy does not?

More definitions. Please define abnormal. See, when you debate, it is always important to define your terms, accurately. I suspect that you do not know what these terms mean, so your task is to educate yourself on their actual meaning., Link to the dictionary definitions.

Oh, and remember: reasonable, established, and standard is meaningless in debate as it is an appeal to antiquity logical fallacy. There. More education.

Sixth: There is no correlation between the popularity of a given idea and the validity of that idea... relevant to your implications regarding 'widespread support'... Meaning that just because an idea becomes widely supported, does not make it logically valid, or intellectually sound; let alone something approaching a good idea.

An actual relevant point! Your first! What you say may be true, however, when it comes to societal changes, if there is no support for that change, then the change will not happen. That's how voting affects things in this country.

So, though your point was relevant, it was easily negated.


Seventh: Homosexuals violate the marriage standard regarding distinct genders and polygamist violate the stated acceptable volume of individuals.

Which has nothing to do with my argument. Another red herring logical fallacy. If you'd like, I can link you to a site that identifies all logical fallacies so you can stop committing them.

In truth, your would-be argument is little more than raw dissemblance... which never serves any purpose except to distract from the truth; thus you're the one advancing a distraction.

Actually, your pathetic post has been so easy to disassemble, that it is obvious that you know so little about this topic that all you have is logical fallacies, in accurate definitions, and distractions in your arsenal.

So, let's see those definitions and links to studies showing polygamy is beneficial.

At the end of the day, where the advocates of normalizing abnormality prevail in destroying the marriage standard, the notion that they will be able to defend the newly lowered standard from the claims by others of different abnormalities, that they should be provided the same benefit of Marriage and included within the standard; and the same specious reasoning that crippled the standard allowing the homosexual will be used to allow the polygamist.

More inaccurate definitions and an appeal to antiquity logical fallacy. It is sad to see that this is all you have. I was hoping for some competition.

The bottom line is that Homosexuals can readily find the financial benefits which they claim to rest at the foundation of theid discontent, by simply filing to incorporate and lobbying congress to add legislation to include a specific Corporation for domestic unions of the common fag. There's no moral component to it, and there's no limit to the number of people who can participate in these legal entities designed to jojn multiple distinct parties into one legal entity. But the advocates of normalizing abnormality are not truly interested in the tax benefits intrinsic to marriage... THEY CRAVE THE LEGITIMACY INHERENT I MARRIAGE.

Legitimacy, that will evaporate, the instant that the institution is crippled by allowing them to participate.

So, let's see those definitions and links to studies showing polygamy is beneficial. Until you do that, as I said, your post... and position is nothing but a trainwreck.
 
Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban is Ruled Unconstitutional

And how exactly is GM beneficial?


j-mac

As has been said, in the exact same ways as heterosexual marriage is beneficial. It promotes the positive rearing of children, the health of the individual, the stability of the family, all of which promotes a more stable and healthier society.
 
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