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Thread: Federal Gay Marriage Ban Is Ruled Unconstitutional

  1. #261
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    Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban Is Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Reading through this thread, it appears that some believe in the specific stated case of CCW permits that a state is bound to honor the Permits from a different state. This is NOT the case. Each state has their own requirements for these and unless the states have a reciprocal agreement you may not carry a concealed weapon outside the state you are licensed in.
    The same applies here for marriage.
    Another example is vehicle laws. You could be given a ticket in California for a cracked windshield even if it is legal in, say, North Carolina and you have North Carolina Tags. One state can't decide law for the whole country. If in Virginia it was legal to drive a vehicle at night that had no headlights, then it would defacto be legal in the whole country as long as your car had VA tags on it. If that's the case then we don't need states at all.
    I am going to check and see If I can find case law examples of states dealing with different marrying ages. I am curious if states are bound to recognize marriages of people under the legal age in that state.
    You know you bring up an excellent point I never considered. States do have the right to set age for legal marriage so that could be used by the gay marriage crowd to claim if states can regulate when someone can get married they should be able to regulate whom can marry whom. Its one of the strongest least emotional arguments I've ever heard from a pro gay marriage perspective. The only counter would be that the federal law simply requires a man and woman for marriage and does not care about age.

    Well done. It truely is one of the best arguments I've ever heard on this issue.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

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  2. #262
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    Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban Is Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    You know you bring up an excellent point I never considered. States do have the right to set age for legal marriage so that could be used by the gay marriage crowd to claim if states can regulate when someone can get married they should be able to regulate whom can marry whom. Its one of the strongest least emotional arguments I've ever heard from a pro gay marriage perspective. The only counter would be that the federal law simply requires a man and woman for marriage and does not care about age.

    Well done. It truely is one of the best arguments I've ever heard on this issue.
    How does that help the Pro gay marriage crowd? If states can regulate who can and can't get married?
    From the ashes.

  3. #263
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    Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban is Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Ok, lay this out side by side BM vs. HM as it relates to benefits to society then would you?


    j-mac
    There's no need to separate benefits, as the same benefits to society are equal between heterosexual and homosexual married couples. What I think you are shooting for is to say is that heterosexual marriage offers some sort of benefit to society that homosexual marriage does not, which has never been proven. In fact, homosexual marriage does benefit society, because of the exact same reason(s) that heterosexual marriage does. In any case, here's a list of benefits that I pulled from the web on a google search.

    Tax Benefits

    Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.
    Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.

    Estate Planning Benefits

    Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.
    Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.
    Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.
    Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse's behalf.

    Government Benefits

    Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.
    Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.
    Receiving public assistance benefits.

    Employment Benefits

    Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.
    Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.
    Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.
    Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse's close relatives dies.

    Medical Benefits

    Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.
    Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.

    Death Benefits

    Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.
    Making burial or other final arrangements.

    Family Benefits

    Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.
    Applying for joint foster care rights.
    Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.
    Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.

    Housing Benefits

    Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."
    Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.

    Consumer Benefits

    Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.
    Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.
    Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.

    Other Legal Benefits and Protections

    Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).
    Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).
    Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can't force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.
    Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
    Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.
    Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.
    Last edited by Singularity; 07-12-10 at 01:05 PM.

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    Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban Is Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    How does that help the Pro gay marriage crowd? If states can regulate who can and can't get married?
    Because it sets a precedence that a state can dictate when federal benefits are given to a married couple by controlling the age of marriage.

    The argument the pro gay marriage crowd or at least this judge put out was that states have the right to control whom can marry. By pointing to the fact that states do control the age of whom can marry they have a precedent to build upon.
    Last edited by texmaster; 07-12-10 at 01:07 PM.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

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    Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban Is Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Because it sets a precedence that a state can dictate when federal benefits are given to a married couple by controlling the age of marriage.

    The argument the pro gay marriage crowd or at least this judge put out was that states have the right to control whom can marry. By pointing to the fact that states do control the age of whom can marry they have a precedent to build upon.
    Incorrect. It has to do with discriminating based on gender.

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    Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban Is Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Incorrect. It has to do with discriminating based on gender.
    What are you talking about?
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

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    Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban Is Ruled Unconstitutional

    Heh, maybe Rivvrat can get people to pay attention to the argument. I seemed to get no where this entire thread.

    Whites can only marry blacks, are restricted from marrying whites. Blacks can only marry whites, are restricted from marrying blacks.

    Men can only marry women, are restricted from marrying men. Women can only marry men, are restricted from marrying women.

    Gender discrimination is equally as unconstitutional as Racial discrimination in this country. Could you tell a race they could only marry someone from another race? No. Yet you're telling a member of a gender they can only marry someone from the other gender. Thus creating inequality between the two races as women can do something under the law men are forbidden from doing and vise versa.

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    Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban Is Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    What are you talking about?
    The argument is that it can be considered gender discrimination because a man can marry a woman, but a woman cannot marry a woman. That isn't my argument for gay marriage, but that is the argument for the gender discrimination argument.

  9. #269
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    Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban Is Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    The argument is that it can be considered gender discrimination because a man can marry a woman, but a woman cannot marry a woman. That isn't my argument for gay marriage, but that is the argument for the gender discrimination argument.
    Ok thanks. And that isn't a bad argument on its face.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

    John Adams

  10. #270
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    Re: Federal Gay Marriage Ban is Ruled Unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    There's no need to separate benefits, as the same benefits to society are equal between heterosexual and homosexual married couples. What I think you are shooting for is to say is that heterosexual marriage offers some sort of benefit to society that homosexual marriage does not, which has never been proven. In fact, homosexual marriage does benefit society, because of the exact same reason(s) that heterosexual marriage does. In any case, here's a list of benefits that I pulled from the web on a google search.

    Tax Benefits

    Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.
    Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.

    Estate Planning Benefits

    Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.
    Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.
    Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.
    Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse's behalf.

    Government Benefits

    Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.
    Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.
    Receiving public assistance benefits.

    Employment Benefits

    Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.
    Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.
    Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.
    Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse's close relatives dies.

    Medical Benefits

    Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.
    Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.

    Death Benefits

    Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.
    Making burial or other final arrangements.

    Family Benefits

    Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.
    Applying for joint foster care rights.
    Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.
    Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.

    Housing Benefits

    Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."
    Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.

    Consumer Benefits

    Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.
    Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.
    Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.

    Other Legal Benefits and Protections

    Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).
    Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).
    Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can't force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.
    Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
    Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.
    Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.
    Well, although I agree that homosexual couples should benefit from that which you have laid out here, especially those which are committed over a longer period of time, I was originally addressing the statement made by Captain Courtesy when he said,

    I have plenty of studies that show the benefits of GM. Let's see you prove the benefits of plural marriage. Evidence and links are the only things that will suffice.
    In that I believe that he was posing that GM was a benefit to society as a whole, and not the benefits that gay couples will enjoy should that day of recognized marriage come to them.

    But then again when I asked him what the benefits were he responded with,

    As has been said, in the exact same ways as heterosexual marriage is beneficial. It promotes the positive rearing of children, the health of the individual, the stability of the family, all of which promotes a more stable and healthier society.
    Which was acceptable as an answer to me. However yours above seems to be more about what will benefit the couples should they attain the status. that was why I asked.

    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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