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Thread: Prop Numbers Assigned, Marijuana Ballot Measure is Prop 19

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    Re: Prop Numbers Assigned, Marijuana Ballot Measure is Prop 19

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    although people might turn gay if stoned enough )
    You can turn gay if you get high too much!? Oh Lord!

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    Re: Prop Numbers Assigned, Marijuana Ballot Measure is Prop 19

    Quote Originally Posted by Binary_Digit View Post
    I'll try, but what do you mean by "ok" to use? Do you think it would encourage non-users to suddenly go out and become potheads? The laws have no known effect on the rate of use. Legalization doesn't mean it's "ok" to use in the sense that it would automatically become socially encouraged. It just means if someone wants to go to a liquor store and buy a joint instead of a six-pack, the law isn't going to tell them they can't.
    I don't have a formed opinion on this issue but I just want to point out how you might be incorrect. Legalization would mean that it's ok to use because our laws follow what is socially and morally acceptable to do. They codify pretty much what we are allowed to and should do. Just like its not acceptable to go out and hit someone or steal their stuff, that's what the law mirrors what is acceptable in society and what we are allowed to do. Saying that using drugs would be legally acceptable, but not acceptable in society is a contradiction, because simply if you don't want them or think they are harmful, you should outlaw them. I agree that the practicality of outlawing drugs may not be good, but from an ideal standpoint it makes sense. What I'm concerned with is that the message it says to all people and also children is that when you grow up, it will be acceptable to try drugs because it is legally ok, therefore it is probably ok socially too. I'm not saying that using drugs is definitively a bad thing, and that drug users are all wrong, but looking from the position that we currently have established, its hard for me to get past it and move toward legalization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Binary_Digit View Post
    Since the government's job is to preserve our personal liberties, there should only be legal consequences if people take actions that infringe on the liberties of others. The government should not infringe on the liberties of soverign individuals by dictating what they can and cannot knowingly and willingly put into their own bodies. It's their body, which means it's their choice and nobody else's business - especially not the government's.
    I just want to point out a different position. The government has the right to dictate to people what they can and cannot do if it will harm someone's body. For example, lets say there was a weird cult that had its members significantly harming their bodies, even if the members agreed, would that be ok to let happen? And don't forget about addiction. The person may not be able to stop even if he/she wants to and it may require the government to not allow certain substances to prevent someone from falling into an addiction cycle.

    I will say as the measure has significant practical benefits to it though, as it would free up law-enforcement resources and generate money, and the current outlawing hasn't worked to well, but right now I have reservations of legalizing the substances. I probably won't stand in the way of the proposition, if the people want it let them have the proposition, but this is what I'm thinking so far.

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    Re: Prop Numbers Assigned, Marijuana Ballot Measure is Prop 19

    Quote Originally Posted by Opteron View Post
    I don't have a formed opinion on this issue but I just want to point out how you might be incorrect. Legalization would mean that it's ok to use because our laws follow what is socially and morally acceptable to do. They codify pretty much what we are allowed to and should do. Just like its not acceptable to go out and hit someone or steal their stuff, that's what the law mirrors what is acceptable in society and what we are allowed to do. Saying that using drugs would be legally acceptable, but not acceptable in society is a contradiction, because simply if you don't want them or think they are harmful, you should outlaw them. I agree that the practicality of outlawing drugs may not be good, but from an ideal standpoint it makes sense. What I'm concerned with is that the message it says to all people and also children is that when you grow up, it will be acceptable to try drugs because it is legally ok, therefore it is probably ok socially too. I'm not saying that using drugs is definitively a bad thing, and that drug users are all wrong, but looking from the position that we currently have established, its hard for me to get past it and move toward legalization.
    Are cigarettes socially acceptable? yet they are legal, how about gambling? or other vices? legality does not equal socially acceptable, if that was the case farting in public would be illegal too.

    As far as the message sent to children, we can still tell them that drugs, MJ, and smoking as a whole is bad. We have made a huge dent in deglamourization and reducing the amount of smokers recently. A highly effective route of attack that has helped cut down on new smokers is delaying the age of first use. Keeping pot out of their hands as impressionable irresponsible schoolkids is a vital step to reducing overall lifetime usage rates.

    What they decide to do as adults is of lesser concern than current availability to them as non adults. Year after year school kids consistently report it is easier to get marijuana than it is to get tobacco and cigarettes. This is because a black market distribution does not present any controls or obstacles such as checking for ID at the point of sale unlike the controlled distribution of alcohol and cigarettes.


    I just want to point out a different position. The government has the right to dictate to people what they can and cannot do if it will harm someone's body. For example, lets say there was a weird cult that had its members significantly harming their bodies, even if the members agreed, would that be ok to let happen? And don't forget about addiction. The person may not be able to stop even if he/she wants to and it may require the government to not allow certain substances to prevent someone from falling into an addiction cycle.
    Do you really think/want to have the governent babysitting us and controlling waht we choose do do with/to ourselves? If so then they also need to outlaw promiscuity, fatty foods, white water rafting, rock climbing, sailing, and any other activities that have an inherent risk.

    Legalizing would also create a clear and unfettered pathway to allow someone to get treatment they need if it was an issue. Currently our position of criminality, intolerance, and ostracism detracts needy people from seeking treatment

    I will say as the measure has significant practical benefits to it though, as it would free up law-enforcement resources and generate money, and the current outlawing hasn't worked to well, but right now I have reservations of legalizing the substances. I probably won't stand in the way of the proposition, if the people want it let them have the proposition, but this is what I'm thinking so far.
    resources and money that in part can be used to foster drug awareness, education, and also promote availability and access to treatment in cases where it is needed/desired (you cant cure an addict that does not want to stop though).
    Last edited by marduc; 07-01-10 at 05:47 PM.
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    Re: Prop Numbers Assigned, Marijuana Ballot Measure is Prop 19

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    I hope this passes, and becomes a catalyst for a national legalization bill.
    Get real girl, can you, even in your wildest dreams, ever imagine Pelosi/Biden/Obama allowing this to be National law?

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    Re: Prop Numbers Assigned, Marijuana Ballot Measure is Prop 19

    I continue to firmly believe that this is a conservative issue, resplendent with personal freedoms and individual liberty.

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    Re: Prop Numbers Assigned, Marijuana Ballot Measure is Prop 19

    Quote Originally Posted by jujuman13 View Post
    Get real girl, can you, even in your wildest dreams, ever imagine Pelosi/Biden/Obama allowing this to be National law?
    I'm not aware of any of them taking a particularly strong stance against it. Have any reason for what you say or is it just speculation?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Prop Numbers Assigned, Marijuana Ballot Measure is Prop 19

    Quote Originally Posted by Opteron View Post
    Legalization would mean that it's ok to use because our laws follow what is socially and morally acceptable to do. They codify pretty much what we are allowed to and should do.
    Something being legal to do, does not equate automatically to something being ok or moral to do.

    Getting stupid drunk each and every day is perfectly legal, yet it is not ok or healthy.
    Having sex with multiple partners each and everyday is legal, but not morally ok to most.
    Watching porn everyday is legal, yet to many is not morally ok to do.

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    Re: Prop Numbers Assigned, Marijuana Ballot Measure is Prop 19

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    Year after year school kids consistently report it is easier to get marijuana than it is to get tobacco and cigarettes. This is because a black market distribution does not present any controls or obstacles such as checking for ID at the point of sale unlike the controlled distribution of alcohol and cigarettes.
    Just saw that I messed up here, and I cannot edit any longer, this should read:

    "Year after year school kids consistently report it is easier to get marijuana than it is to get tobacco and alcohol..."
    Last edited by marduc; 07-01-10 at 07:20 PM.
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    Re: Prop Numbers Assigned, Marijuana Ballot Measure is Prop 19

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Actually, he's 100% correct on his assessment. Anyone who has paid any attention to politics for the last 12 years or so knows that wedge issues have been used for the purpose of driving out the vote and both sides have done it repeatedly.
    Thanks. I know I'm right. That is why I didn't take the time to to rebut those that can't see behind the curtain.

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    Re: Prop Numbers Assigned, Marijuana Ballot Measure is Prop 19

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Something being legal to do, does not equate automatically to something being ok or moral to do.

    Getting stupid drunk each and every day is perfectly legal, yet it is not ok or healthy.
    Having sex with multiple partners each and everyday is legal, but not morally ok to most.
    Watching porn everyday is legal, yet to many is not morally ok to do.
    You can take my porn from my cold, dead warm, sweaty hands!
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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