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Thread: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Why?

    Should an islamic group on campus get school funding if they have a policy to disallow any "infidels" to join the club?

    Should a black group on campus get funding if they have a policy to disallow anyone who "conforms to the man" in the way they speak and/or dress?

    Should a gaming club get school funding if they have a policy to disallow any individual who participates in organized sports to join their club?

    Should a Conservative club get school funding if they have a policy to disallow any individual who voted for George Bush's second term or advocates for nation building policies.

    Should a homosexual club be able to get school funding if they have a policy disallowing baptists from joining?

    Should a sports club on campus get school funding if they have a policy that states anyone more than a 25 BMI is not allowed into their club?

    And on and on.

    Essentially, should any club be able to make up any reason why they can deny anyone and put it into their rulings and still get complete and full funding from the school?

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    And you think thats a good idea that all behavior no matter what it is must be tolerated by all groups seeking government funding?
    Who is forcing these groups to seek funding from tax dollars? If they wish to remain private religious entities that subscribe to their own peculiar prejudices, they should be able to sustain themselves privately. If not, they're an epic fail and don't deserve tax dollars.

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Why?

    Should an islamic group on campus get school funding if they have a policy to disallow any "infidels" to join the club?

    Should a black group on campus get funding if they have a policy to disallow anyone who "conforms to the man" in the way they speak and/or dress?

    Should a gaming club get school funding if they have a policy to disallow any individual who participates in organized sports to join their club?

    Should a Conservative club get school funding if they have a policy to disallow any individual who voted for George Bush's second term or advocates for nation building policies.

    Should a homosexual club be able to get school funding if they have a policy disallowing baptists from joining?

    Should a sports club on campus get school funding if they have a policy that states anyone more than a 25 BMI is not allowed into their club?

    And on and on.

    Essentially, should any club be able to make up any reason why they can deny anyone and put it into their rulings and still get complete and full funding from the school?
    So what is the point of even having groups if there are no requirements on personal behavior?
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    For example if its a Christian group that believes those who are homosexual can not be "christians" because they are routinely and knowingly, without any attempt to repent or change the fact, engaging in a "sinful" life style?
    If they only single out homosexuals and not other "sinners" they are engaging in an arbitrary exclusion, regardless of their own flawed opinions on it.

    If they exclude all sinners, the group can't exist because all people are sinners accoring to Christianity. If they only exclude unrepeneatent sinners, they need to be consistent in their application of that. Are they excluding people who have ever lied, coveted, adultered failed to keep the sabbath holy, dishonored their mother and father and that haven't made any attemtps to make ammends? Then they aren't being arbitrary.

    Singling out homosexuals, however, is arbitrary.

    It's not my problem if they fail at simple logic and consistency themselves. Their group can stil exist, it just can't recieve recognition and funding.


    Should they be forced to allow someone they don't believe is Christian but considers themselves such into their club to be able to get funding?
    Can they defend their belief that the person isn't Chrsitian logically and objectively? If so, then yes. If not, they tough titty.

    And if so, who makes the determination of what's "arbitrary" or not?
    If the aplication of a rule is uniform and doesn't specifically target one group of a class while ignoring another (such as excluding Muslims or Atheists but not Jews or Buddhists from a Christian group) it isn't arbitrary. If it is just done tot target one group for nothing more than the fac tthat they belong to that group, it is.


    In a similar vein, if an "African American" club restricts its membership due to race does it have a right to deny someone who wants to join the club because the actions being undertaken are important to him due to being raised by a black step father, but the club doesn't consider him African American so would deny him entry?
    In this case, they are defining "African-American" as a racial designation, not a cultural designation. If they bar all non-African-Americans (using the racial designation) from the group (not just whites, but asians, arabs, indians, etc as well) it isn't arbitrary.

    If they only ban whites, but not other races, then it is arbitrary. Allowing an asian guy rasied by a black step-father into the group while disallowing a white guy raised by a black step-father into the group would be an example of an arbitrary exclusion. Disallowing both from entering the group, however, is an example of a non-arbitrary exclusion.


    It seems to me your later statement is simply interjecting an additional way for discrimination to be allowable if its in such a way that doesn't bother the college in an ideological sense, again creating a defacto situation here they can discriminate against people with public funds based on arbitrary political views.
    Actually, I'm just injecting logic into the mix. Barring homosexuals from a Christian group has no logical foundation unless all other "sinful" lifestyles are also barred.

    There are no political views involved in my arguments. Just raw logic and a requirement for a consistently applied and logically defensible exclusionary practice.
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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Who is forcing these groups to seek funding from tax dollars? If they wish to remain private religious entities that subscribe to their own peculiar prejudices, they should be able to sustain themselves privately. If not, they're an epic fail and don't deserve tax dollars.
    Then answer my question.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    So you must be A-Ok if you had a group receiving government funding and a NAMBLA member wanted to join. You would be forced to accept him into your group. You're ok with that?

    Its when you actually think this through its not as utopia as you want to it be
    NAMBLA espouses behaviors that are illegal. No, I do not believe that groups that promote illegal conduct, whether it is sexually abusing minors or discriminating on the basis of race/ethnicity/gender/religious faith, or distributing heroin, should receive federal funding. Nice try, though.

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    And you think thats a good idea that all behavior no matter what it is must be tolerated by all groups seeking government funding?
    I think its perfectly good behavior to allow campus's to decide that school funding for COLLEGE groups will only go to groups whose membership is open to ANY student of that college, as long as said college is consistant in their application of that belief.

    Either you giving funding ONLY to totally and completely open clubs, or you give funding to all clubs regardless of what restrictions they have for membership. Both of those are perfectly fine behavior in my mind.

    What would not be fine behavior is giving funding to SOME clubs that are not totally open while denying it to other clubs that are not totally open.

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Then answer my question.
    I don't believe that illegal behavior should be tolerated, and groups that endorse or engage in illegal conduct should not receive federal funding. Discrimination is illegal, so is sexual contact with minors.

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    So what is the point of even having groups if there are no requirements on personal behavior?
    You can stll have a group with requirements for personal behavior.

    You just don't get school funding. That doesn't mean you can't use school facilities, can't be advertised by the school, etc. It just means you don't get funding from the school to perform your various activities.

    The point of giving funding only to groups that are totally open in membership is the belief that you only give SCHOOL funds to organizations that EVERY student has the potential to utilize, otherwise you're redistributing their wealth to things they are not able to partake in.

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Should an islamic group on campus get school funding if they have a policy to disallow any "infidels" to join the club?
    What is their reasoning? Are they using the term "Infidels" ior are they using the term "non-Muslims"?

    Should a black group on campus get funding if they have a policy to disallow anyone who "conforms to the man" in the way they speak and/or dress?
    What is their reasoning? (Wouldn't an even application of that rule actually exclude anyone who goes to a college that is run by "the man"? )

    Should a gaming club get school funding if they have a policy to disallow any individual who participates in organized sports to join their club?
    What is their reasoning? (If it is because they support gambling, then the club should not receive funding anyway.)

    Should a Conservative club get school funding if they have a policy to disallow any individual who voted for George Bush's second term or advocates for nation building policies.
    Hmmm... two fold here. One is fairly arbitrary and doesn't eclude equal actions, the other is not arbitrary and is inclusinve of an entire ideological subset of nation-building. I'd say that the first part should exclude funding, but the second part on it's own wouldn't.

    Should a homosexual club be able to get school funding if they have a policy disallowing baptists from joining?
    Not is the terminology is "No baptists allowed". If the terminology is "No person shall be admitted into the group if they subscribe to an ideology that has a known anti-homosexual agenda" then it should be allowed.

    Should a sports club on campus get school funding if they have a policy that states anyone more than a 25 BMI is not allowed into their club?
    What is the reasoning? Sounds like it would have to be arbitrary to me.

    Essentially, should any club be able to make up any reason why they can deny anyone and put it into their rulings and still get complete and full funding from the school?
    No. They can't make up any reason they want. They have to be able to give a logical sound and valid foundation for their decision to exclude and show a consistent application instead of arbitrary application.

    i.e. Assuming that a college has denied funding to one Christian group that barred homosexuals specifically from being in their group, but allows a Sports club that bars those who are not actively involved in sports (lifestyle choice), then that University should have to grant funding to a Christian group should be allowed to exclude people who live sinful lifestyles if they are applying that designation evenly and without focusing on a single specific lifestyle (this is because they have defined what the "Christian lifestyle is and are excluding those who do not adhere to a Christian lifestyle, just as the sports group defined what a "Sports lifestyle" was and excluded those who did not adhere to that sports lifestyle.)
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 06-30-10 at 11:58 AM.
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