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Thread: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Stop and think about what you just said. That would mean every group would have to tolerate everyone no matter what the senario lest they be accused of discrimination.

    This is what you really want?
    They would have to tolerate every group people, there's a difference there
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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    So what would you rule? That there's a constitutional entitlement to public funding of student groups?
    I would likely say that rules regarding public funding of student groups should be uniformly applied and that the school was in the right for denying public funds if they do not give any public funds or perks to any other groups on campus that discriminate in some such way; but if they DO give public funds to such groups then those groups would need to be cut from funding or privledges along with keeping this group from receiving it.

    Essentially, that PUBLIC universities don't get to dictate who gets PUBLIC money based on whether or not they agree with the ideology of the group and thus decide to turn a blind eye to potential violations of the rules. Either they enforce the rules evenly or they remove the rule.

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    This is my feeling on the subject. Religious organizations shouldn't get public funding not because they discriminate against homosexuals; rather religious organizations shouldn't get public funding because they are religious organizations and therefore subject to separation of church and state. It's best when we keep religion out of government and government out of religion.
    Why restrict it to religious groups? Why are the universities funding any groups? If some people want to form an organization, why don't they fund it themselves?

    Why aren't the universities using their funds to educate students?

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    Why restrict it to religious groups? Why are the universities funding any groups? If some people want to form an organization, why don't they fund it themselves?

    Why aren't the universities using their funds to educate students?

    .
    The reason why we restrict religious groups is because we have a doctrine of separation of the Establishment Clause in our Constitution. That clause is the reason for the separation of church and state our nation enjoys. That's why religious organizations on campus are subject to this but athletic or academic on-campus organizations aren't.

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    If the money is coming from public funds, I believe any school group is entitled to it without political consideration.
    See, I guess that's where I differ. For me, the fact that it is coming from public funds is exactly why no group is entitled to it. I believe that the school has a duty set up rules that must be adhered to in order for the funds to be allocated to a particular group.

    Otherwise, someone lik emyself would create a school group for the simple purpose of using public funds to get drunk. If any school group is entitled to it. I'd make it a study group and tutor the other members in between beers.
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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    I agree absolutely and completely Tuck. "Any" school group shouldn't necessarily be afforded funds. Additionally not all discrimination is equal. IE, discrimination based on grades is different than discrimination based on gender. However there are generally federally and state defined instances that get equal protection, such as gender, and race. All I'd say is that if a school can withhold funds and privledges because of discrimination against one of these type groups then it should be clear, consistant, and evenly applied to any group discriminating against any of those protected classes.

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    Why restrict it to religious groups? Why are the universities funding any groups? If some people want to form an organization, why don't they fund it themselves?

    Why aren't the universities using their funds to educate students?

    .
    Yes - I wonder this, too.
    I didn't realize these groups weren't self-funded. News to me.
    It makes little sense that a school would be funding a social-group . . . while at the same time raising everyone's costs for schooling.

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Really, its going to have little real affect if this group is intelligent.

    You do what many ethnic groups on campus do. You don't restrict membership, but you make the actions and purpose of the group such that those individuals won't want to join to take an active role. If this group focused on say, cases and activities that pushed their view points including pushing against gay marriage, against gay adoption, against the notion of gays as something other than a sinful life style, etc through the various activities of the group then I doubt you'd find many homosexuals WANTING to join. The only ones likely to want to join are those seeking to cause a disruption, in which case will perform actions that will violate legitimate rules of the club to call for them being expelled.

    At that point if the school wanted to restrict them funding despite them following the laws they'd have to do it specifically and obviously due to ideological issues.

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Court: Christian group can't bar gays, get funding - Politics - msnbc.com



    Seems like a reasonable decision to me. The first amendment protects your right to discriminate but it does not protect your right to receive public funding or recognition to enable your discrimination. (the Christian group in question excluded homosexuals)

    5-4 decision, with the expected conservative/liberal split and Kennedy siding with the liberals on this one. That four supreme court justices think the first amendment protects your right to public funding of discrimination is fairly disturbing.

    On the plus side, this gives some hope to the folks waiting on overturn of California's Prop 8, as it shows that Kennedy wont automatically side against homosexuality. Overturning Prop 8 is a much bigger decision, though, so how he ends up in the inevitable Supreme Court case remains to be seen.
    Seems to me, that you're correct.

    Christian groups have no business seeking federal funds for anything, the idea of seeking federal money, runs counter to theChristian Church and American Principle. As is nearly always the case, old mores always bear out the truth and one of my favorites is: "He that pays the Piper, calls the tune." Or put in modern terms, "The guy that paid for the band gets to choose the music." Meaning simply that those Christian groups that do not seek or utilize Federal funds, need not concern themselves with this decision.

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    Re: Court: Christian group can't bar gays [and] get funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I agree absolutely and completely Tuck. "Any" school group shouldn't necessarily be afforded funds. Additionally not all discrimination is equal. IE, discrimination based on grades is different than discrimination based on gender. However there are generally federally and state defined instances that get equal protection, such as gender, and race. All I'd say is that if a school can withhold funds and privledges because of discrimination against one of these type groups then it should be clear, consistant, and evenly applied to any group discriminating against any of those protected classes.
    I'd be more inclined to agree if you changed the word "can" (which I bolded) to "chooses to" as in "if a school chooses to withhold funds and privledges because of discrimination against one of these type groups then it should be clear, consistant, and evenly applied to any group discriminating against any of those protected classes."

    That gives the school the option of not witholding funds for that reason.

    I would also add that if the group can show a non-arbitrary reason for their discrimination there should be exceptions made. For example, a Christian group has a non-arbitrary reason to deny membership to non-Christians. A womens group has non-arbitray reasons for denying membership to non-women. etc.
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